Ep. 18: Retired Navy Captain Dr. Mark Brouker on Leadership Lessons from 30 years in the Navy
In this episode, Darren Reinke chats with Mark Brouker, Retired Navy Captain and Founder of Brouker Leadership Solutions. Mark discusses the powerful leadership lessons he learned in the Navy, why he attributes his success to taking care of his people, the power of saying “I Don’t Know”, and how to build a sense of hope for your team when facing a crisis.
After transitioning from the military, Captain Brouker founded Brouker Leadership Solutions, a company dedicated to helping leaders succeed on their leadership journeys. He has presented to thousands of professionals in twenty-one countries, and his clients include Fortune 500 companies, professional and military organizations, and top universities.
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SHOW NOTES
Mark’s Spark for Joining the Military [1:19]
How Mark’s Sense of Purpose Evolved Over His 30 Year Navy Career [3:00]
Why “Taking Care of Your People” was Paramount to Mark’s Success [4:52]
Why Saying “I Don’t Know” is a Key Leadership Trait [8:30]
How Mark Leverages Crises to Build Trust [11:10]
Tips You Can Use During Tough Times to Build Rapport With Your Team [14:14]
Mark’s Tips For Building a Sense of Hope During Crises [16:20]
Why Trust is One of the Most Overlooked Pillars of Leadership [19:21]
How Empowering Employees Through Psychological Safety Will Lead to Better Ideas [26:02]
Why Listening is the Secret to Becoming a Great Leader [27:40]
Why Owning Up to Your Mistakes Further Builds Trust Within Your Team [31:31]
SHOW LINKS
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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Darren Reinke: Welcome to The Savage Leader Podcast, where I interview leaders from all walks of life so that you can walk away with tips to apply to your life and your career. But this isn't your traditional leadership podcast because I believe that leadership tips come from successful entrepreneurs and business executives, of course. Still, they also come from unexpected places, like Navy SEALs, successful professional athletes, sports coaches, musicians, entertainers, and more. So let's dive right into today's episode; my hope is you walk away with something tangible that you can apply immediately to your life in your career. Today's guests on the savage leader podcast is Mark Brouker. Mark is a retired Navy captain and currently as a president of brouker leadership solutions, a company that is dedicated to helping leaders find success on their leadership journey. He's also the author of a successful book titled, lessons from the Navy, how to earn trust to lead teams and achieve organizational excellence. Mark, thanks for coming on today.
Mark Brouker: Thanks, Darren. I really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to a rich conversation, man.
Mark’s Spark for Joining the Military [1:19]
Darren Reinke: Yeah. Likewise, likewise, it's been great. It's been a few years since we talked, but I'd love just to go back in time a little bit. Obviously, you had a very successful career in the military. But take me back in time, what drew you into joining the military in the first place?
Mark Brouker: Yeah, you know, there's a lot, probably a few reasons. But I, you know, I was back in 83. So, that was a big Reagan push for the 600. Ship Navy. And, and I was in a job as a pharmacist, and I was at a job that paid pretty well in Washington, DC, just a regular drugstore job. And at the time, I didn't know why I didn't like it, it was paid well, and ours were pretty easy. The job was actually pretty easy. But something was missing. And my father was in the Navy, a cousin of mine, and he's referencing the book, Steve, he did the 25 years, chief in the Navy. And he always told me stories about the Navy, and he was about five or six years older than me. So, I think like most people, you know, you've had your prominent people in your life, I have an influence on you. And the Navy was always in the back of my mind. So, I took a leap of faith and joined in really the primary reason I gotta be honest, you know, obviously, I want to serve my country, all that stuff, but a free ticket to California. First duty station was San Diego, where I live now. And I said, Man, I'm from the East Coast, never been to California, it sounds like a pretty good deal is a three-year commitment ended up doing 30. But that's kind of how it all started. But it's its funny. It's a really good question, Darren. I think people join the military for a number of reasons. But I think we all have that common thread. We want to make a difference. And we want to be part of something bigger than ourselves. And that was probably there. But it maybe that wasn't as cognizant of it as I was towards the end of my career, but it was a great ride.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I love what you said in terms of that sense of purpose. But I think it's funny when there's the reason behind the reason, right, you know, the ticket to California and, and landing in a great place. Obviously, I'm a San Diego as well. So, a big supporter of the region. But let's go back to that in terms of this sense of purpose. Interesting. You said something was missing in obviously a sense of purpose and serving your country. So talk to me a little bit about what that was like and how you were able to get that sense of purpose in working in the Navy.
How Mark’s Sense of Purpose Evolved Over His 30 Year Navy Career [3:00]
Mark Brouker: Yeah, you know, it's hard to pinpoint times, where I felt that certainly Desert Storm, I got to deploy during Desert Storm, which was a war against Iraq back in 1991. That was extremely exciting for me. And I felt, obviously, when you're serving your country, in a war zone, it's pretty cool. But it wasn't I guess, it was hard to say that there were one specific times, but even on bad days, I'll say this, even on bad days, and you know, you have bad days, and maybe any corporation in place. Even the bad days, I knew in the back of my head, there was a bigger purpose here that our country is a couple 100 years old, and it is an experiment. And that was always mindful of that. And again, maybe I wasn't thinking about as thoughtfully as I probably should have. But I think in retrospect, no, I think we all have a bit of patriotism in us. And in the Navy, you know, you're just serving your country, you want to make a difference. And it is experiment is thing could go away pretty quickly. I don't know there was, it's a tough question to answer because there was no specific time. I think over those 30 years, it evolved that I realized that this is an amazing experience. And certainly towards the end, it got very, very exciting. So yeah, tough question, man. I hope I answered it appropriately.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I think to what you bring up is that there's this finding something is bigger than yourself. And whether it's in the military, whether it's finding purpose in your job, or the type of work you do. I mean, for me, it's about helping people and helping them be the best leaders they can be. But maybe it's working for a company that has a sense of purpose that does something for humanity or for society for the environment or for people or just even brings joy to folks, you create products or services that make people happy. So, how did your career grow and evolve? And so, what was that growth? Like what did it require you to be successful throughout your career in the military?
Why “Taking Care of Your People” was Paramount to Mark’s Success [4:52]
Mark Brouker: Oh, you know, I think it was interesting. So, I came in again, 83. Here's in a nutshell, here's the 30 years in a nutshell up there in the first eight years, I started realizing that my joy, my passion, my eagerness to go to work, wax and wane, sometimes really fired up to go to work other times hated to go to work. And I started looking into it, I realized it had nothing to do with where I was located. As you will know, there's all these places in the Navy, geographic locations are good duty stations, and not so good and nothing to do with that. It had nothing to do with the job I had, and pharmacy, there's all these different jobs you can have, but had nothing to do with this specific job I had, when I realized it was my boss, my boss would, frankly dictate how fired up I was going to work every day there. But matter of fact, there are a couple of times actually called the detail or HR department, the Navy didn't want to quit thinking you get to walk away when you can't walk away, of course, but that's how miserable I was. So I started reading about leadership. This is a long time ago. And I guess I didn't realize how passionate I was about it. Especially military leadership. I've just I just love reading about military leaders. And I came up with some thoughts on leadership. Jump ahead. 20 years, I was selected the commanding officer of Bremerton Naval Hospital. And I had a moment three nights before the change of command ceremony, this very formal ceremony, where I couldn't sleep. I was tossing and turning and realized that probably out kick my coverage, and I was just a little nervous about this whole command thing. And I wake my wife up, and she looks at me, she was going on, I tell her I'm a little nervous about this command. Thanks. She goes, Well, you know, it is a big deal. But she asked me, she was What are you specifically nervous about? And I said, Chris, here's a deal, man. I know how to run pharmacies, but I'm not sure I really know how to run a hospital. And I'm not saying I was incompetent. But there was so many other people more qualified, I guess, on paper, to run that hospital. But she looked at me, she said, Mark, you've been studying leadership, your whole life, be the best leader you can be. And we'll see what happens. And that's what I did, Darren. And what I specifically realized what I needed to do as a leader, I needed to just take care of my people, I want to build a relationship with my people, I want to build trust with them. And that's what we did. And it took, you know, building trust takes time, you can't do it overnight. But over six, nine months, I've built a relationship with the staff, we have about 1500 people, I walked around a lot, everything that's in the book. And we were wildly successful, in spite of the fact that really to this day, I'm not an expert in running a hospital. And that gave me such insight into leadership and inspire me to write the book. And it's just it's been a wild journey ended. Now, like you, I've talked to a lot of leaders, and it all really boils down to the leaders who take care of the people are more successful. And those that don't. It's as simple as that.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, like you said, in terms of his situation, he said you out kicked your covers, so nice football metaphor analogy, which is great, but just the idea, you maybe felt a little bit over your head, you maybe had some beliefs in your head, I don't have the experience to do this. But I think it's really interesting. What you said is you really said I'm going to lean into my people, I'm gonna take care of my people first and foremost, and figure out everything else along the way. But can you take us through that journey, if you will, in terms of how did you get to the point where you really were confident and competent in terms of running a hospital, which was something that was new for you?
Mark Brouker: Yeah, no, it took months. And you know, I probably faked it well, but I tell you, Darren, honestly, there are a lot of folks still in Bremerton who are there who probably, you know, I don't know if they knew when I came to those meetings every morning, we had a board of directors meeting. And I was always a little nervous thinking man, I hope they don't realize how not clueless but how much I need to learn. But I was very transparent.
Why Saying “I Don’t Know” is a Key Leadership Trait [8:30]
Mark Brouker: And they people said to me, Hey, Mark, you know, can't Brouker sir, whatever. What do you think of this? And I said, You know what? I'm not sure. I don't know. So, I said, I don't know a lot. And it's interesting, Jeff Immelt, which is a lesson itself there. And I think, you know, and I didn't realize it until I read this review of Jeff Immelt wrote a book, I guess it came out a couple of months ago, and if you're familiar with it, but you know, he was CEO of GE, and he took that company didn't he didn't do a very good job from a market capitalization viewpoint, he went from 600 billion to 100 billion. And at the end of this interview, the Wall Street Journal interviewed him for his book, he said, What's one thing you could have done better because I should have said, I don't know more which I thought was great humility. And I think he was kind of conveying that he probably should have had a little bit more humility when he's in that job. So, I think, you know, saying you don't know as a leader is, is extremely important. And I've said, I don't know a lot. And I learned a lot. I was willing to learn that. I guess over that three years, it took probably a year to realize that this thing was really happening. The second year became very powerful. The third year, we started winning national awards. It really got very, very exciting in that third year, I just realized things were clicking, and we had a good thing going and the last thing I just say, as a leader. There are many times you know, when you're leading up any kind of group, a crisis comes up. And sometimes when I really had that confidence, I felt good that where we were, I didn't when I look forward to crises, but when they happen, it was like Oh, my goodness is another opportunity to build trust and grow the team even more. But that took a long time. That was something that did not happen instantaneous. Building trust is a journey.
Darren Reinke: And there's so much richness in what you said, I love that in terms of just the courage to say, I don't know. And you mentioned Jeff Immelt, obviously very successful, the CEO and likewise with you is, but that takes a lot of confidence. I think so many times, leaders think they have to be the subject-matter expert of experts, if you will. But as you mentioned, it sometimes it's about leading from the back to in terms of empowering people that do no more than you and to learn more than them. And just to be curious, and be willing to be vulnerable and say, I don't have the answer to everything, but I'm going to learn and clearly, I'm looking at the bookshelf behind you, and you're a lifelong learner.
Mark Brouker: Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, I guess the other thing is, is you know, that you know what you do, as a leader is emulated. Everything you do, as a leader is generally emulated, Gallup has done surveys on this, where 60%, on average, are people, six out of 10, people are going to emulate what you do, and that's on average, very charismatic, it's going to be even more, you know, you get the idea. So even saying, I don't know, this habit is a behavior that's going to be emulated. And you want your people to say, I don't know, because, again, no one's an expert in everything, and to show transparency, and just be honest with your team, instead of Bs, and, um, it's really, really important, that's a culture of trust and get you on a good course.
How Mark Leverages Crises to Build Trust [11:10]
Darren Reinke: You mentioned something also just in terms of using crises to actually build trust. And you talk about that a lot in your book, and you talk about things. I think that's a unique take me most people think about crises, and let's just get through this, let's just survive, whether it's a personnel issue, a strategic issue, a competitive issue, a marketplace issue. So, tell me about how you've used crises in the past to actually develop trust with your team?
Mark Brouker: Yeah, you know, that's a really is a weird dynamic, I guess, is a bit I thought deeply about this. And really, the end of the day is this there. And I what I've concluded was, it's in the book, it's a chapter on this is every interaction that you have with an employee, whatever, you know, a staff member, is an opportunity to build trust, every single interaction, whether it's a social media post, a tweet, or a passing in the hallway, a social event, having a beer with your team, at the social event, every interaction is an opportunity to build trust, some interactions are more impactful than others, obviously, a one-on-one meeting very impactful. But a crisis is an amazing opportunity. When the leader gets it, right. We talked about in the book, there are some kinds of good documentation, how to lead a crisis, your main income, getting from your people, all the things you do, but if you do that, well, those are amazing opportunities to build the team even stronger. And so like, I kind of infer that I can't say this all the time. There are many crises that happened at Bremerton that I just, I don't think I panicked, but I wasn't really on my game. And I was more reactive. But there were some, for instance, we had, we had a huge earthquake in Haiti, I think it was 2009. And I got the call from headquarters is over a weekend, and it was January, I think the football game was on and stuff anyway, I got a call from my boss saying, Hey, we're going to take you, basically your entire board of directors and deploy them to Haiti, and kind of big deal. You're basically losing all your primary leaders. So, I had them all con in that Sunday, I believe it was, and I felt like wow, this is an opportunity to have other leaders step up. And I just I was in that mindset, I was in that good zone, where I was excited that this is an amazing opportunity to build trust, and I can, you can't measure trust, but I, I felt in my heart we did build a lot of trust. And in fact that the team never did deploy, it was just a kind of drill. It just never happened. But the point is, I was in a good place there. And when if leaders can get in good places with this, these crises, you can build an amazing amount of trust. And we could talk about this with the COVID things. I've done a lot of work with all that mostly hospital CEOs, about COVID and stuff, but some came through COVID stronger, and others came through much weaker. And we could talk about that if you want, but it's its every interaction is an opportunity to build trust. Crises are amazing opportunities.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I love it. I think about anytime you're in front of your boss, whether it's happy or whatnot, you're always being judged, you're always being observed. But I like to, like have this very positive spin, which is every opportunity is provides an opportunity to be trusted. And what a great tip. So take me through, you know, a specific, is there a crises you could say? Or how do people actually go about building trust? In that moment? I know people are really interested in like, how actually can I take advantage of that? Take advantage that sounds opportunistic, but how can I really be sure to build that trust when we're going through tough times?
Tips You Can Use During Tough Times to Build Rapport With Your Team [14:14]
Mark Brouker: Yeah, you know, there are a couple of things and actually interesting I added that chapter at the end of my book is bottom line is a book came out in November. It was basically finished in March when there's March 2020 In my publisher room and Littlefield everything they had hit pretty hard, obviously in New York. So, there was really no communication with my publisher for two months. And I kind of knew that, so I had nothing to do. I rewrote the book, frankly, but I added that chapter of crises good I was getting a lot of calls from some of my clients about what to do in this COVID mess. So, I guess the these are this is kind of common-sense stuff, but I guess one thing you got to be visible you got to get in front of your people and Obviously, Zoom calls or whatever you got to do, but you got to communicate with your people. It's extremely important. I have a whole chapter on it in the book. But in a crisis, that's even more important. People want to see you. And I'll share with you, there were a couple of clients that the pretty good-sized hospitals were reticent to get in front of people because they didn't have any answers. This is in March, you know, this, we didn't know what was going on with COVID. It was very mysterious. And there are a lot of questions. And they told me, they said, I don't have any, I don't have any answers for their questions. I don't really know anything I said, doesn't matter. Get as much Intel as you can go out there and talk with them, and have a Zoom call, have a meeting. Be honest, in so in these meetings is obviously very important. Just don't panic, you got to give people hope, which is really a difficult thing to do. But you've got to give people hope that their efforts are going to be worth a bigger worth their effort. And there's a whole thing about that which Stockdale paradox. And we could talk about that if you want. But it's a kind of fascinating paradox. Really, literally what it is, is how do you maintain an IRA of optimism in a crisis? Well, you've got to do it, you've got to have, again, give people hope. Yes. Okay. In a crisis today, I don't know. Because in a crisis, by definition, it's all unknowns. So, those are a couple of things, be visible, be transparent, and be generally optimistic, give your people hope, in a crisis really, really important.
Mark’s Tips For Building a Sense of Hope During Crises [16:20]
Darren Reinke: Let's get on that path. I'd love to hear about how do you give people hope I am such a big believer in optimism, and you have to have faith or hope in the future, things are going to turn out right. So if you lose that, there really is no path for but how do you practically speak as a leader, especially in a crisis, how do you create that sense of hope?
Mark Brouker: Yeah, I've got to give us a silly example. But it's the best example I can give you. I just heard it today on a call with one of the folks on coaching a CEO of a hospital, a parking issue. And it's kind of a strange answer the question, but just follow me on this is if you listen to Stephen Covey, his great book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I'm sure probably everyone on the lines heard about it or read it, what if his things his circle of influence, his circle of control, some things you can influence, some things you cannot control? So in a crisis, you got to figure out pretty quickly, what can you control. And most of it's not, you can't control much what you can't control your behaviors, and your behaviors are going to drive that culture. So if the parking thing just to give you an example, this optimism, being optimistic, generally optimistic. So, I gave this talk a couple of years ago, and that's the name of the hospital and it's so much that, you know, the parking here stinks. You know, parking stinks here at the hospital, you know, how do you put a happy face on that you got to walk a quarter mile. I said, Well, here's what I would do. When a new person comes aboard the hospital. Some talk about the great things are happening at that house. But the President comes here, the Congress comes here, we have great case mix complexity, we get army folks here we are working with the army. The bad news is you got to walk pretty far, it's going to be a quarter mile hike, you got to bring a couple pair of shoes and bring an umbrella. It is what it is. We're not going to fix a parking anytime soon. So welcome aboard. The point is, is you don't Meyer in the bad news, you, but you don't ignore it. You don't ignore the elephant in the room. But don't let it take over and overwhelm the conversation. There are other things that are good happening in a company, is always good things happen to company, talk about those things. Another company, I'll just share with you real quick, was going through this, this, this COVID thing. And they always started a meeting with good news. They talked about the tough stuff. And there's a lot of tough stuff. But they always ended with an on a high note that you know what, we went through something like this a couple of years ago, with 2008 Financial crisis we got through that. So, it's a very difficult thing to explain to people how to do it. But in what when you're facing a crisis, you must be mindful to maintain that optimism doesn't go down that pessimism hole, it's poison.
Darren Reinke: And I let it gets back to what you said about being honest. And just being willing to say, I don't know or, in this case, not sugarcoating it. Look, it is a long walk, you do need an umbrella to bring, you know pack comfortable shoes or whatnot, and then focusing on the positive. So yeah, great examples of how you can provide that sense of positivity, that sense of hope. I'd love to back up a bit because I know one of the premises of your book as you talk about trust as being the pillar of leadership that's most overlooked. And then it's well documented. Google did that project Aristotle and found that psychological safety of the presence of psychological safety, which is basically Trust, is the key indicator to the highest performing team. So, why do you think that trust is an overlooked attribute, or pillar as you call it, of leadership?
Why Trust is One of the Most Overlooked Pillars of Leadership [19:21]
Mark Brouker: Yeah, that's a great question. And I actually added a lot in the book on that because it is a conundrum how, why is it we don't put in again, trust there's a couple of attributes of trust, I guess, are factors and trust. When trust is competency, you got to have some level of competency. You've got to have certainly other things with trust. But what is missing is like you alluded to Darren is why do people not think about the caring piece of it when at the end of the day, when people feel Their leader cares for them. Trust is formed, and why leaders don't understand that, I think there are a couple of things. One, I think there's so much information there out about leadership. It's ubiquitous, there's just so much information. And the common-sense stuff gets lost in all the information, but to take care of your people. And when some if you work for me, and you conclude that Mark Brouker cares for my well-being trust is formed, you'll be more likely to tell me what I need to hear, not what I want to hear, you'll be more likely to tell me things that could happen that are risky, that we need to start thinking about, those are all extremely important attributes of a successful company. Like I said, I think there's so much information out there about leadership that probably a little bit too theoretical. And the other thing is, I don't think this is really taught, there's not a lot of teaching in MBA programs, and other leadership development programs, it talks about the power of care, and we call it soft skills, which is probably the worst possible name, we could give these things. It's so powerful. And in my research, I've just realized that this is the most important thing that leaders can do to build trust and, obviously, create successful teams and organizational excellence, as some of the soft skills. I mean, that's the big premise of you know, a lot of the work that I do in my own book is about this internal journey that we go on as leaders to become great because so much time courses you reference that are really about some of the hard skills, how to be a better decision maker, how to be a better or Raider, how to be better at assessing risks. But there's so much that goes on internally, but just even you know, using as a successful ex military guy, and being willing to go there caring about people. Yeah, it is the softest of soft skills, it requires empathy. But I like the way you break down trust into some different components. I think a word, like trust, can be applied in different ways. But it's like trust that they'll get it done. Trust that they'll make the right decision. Trust that they'll do the right thing. You know that that gets back to values, at least those are words that I'm applying to, but it's an interesting word. And I like the way you're talking caring about people, as the basis to create trust, and how important that is.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, and you know, you mentioned decision-making, it's you know, it's leaders, that's really what you're doing, you're making decisions. And when you have a culture where people can give their input, you're going to have better decision-making. It's just, again, common sense. But if you have a culture of fear, you're not going to have good intel, you're not going to have all the information. And again, you're never going to have all the information for any decision, let's just be completely honest. But when you have a culture of trust, people more likely to tell you information. And the more information you have, in any kind of leader, you're going to make better decisions. It just it's common sense. So, that's why this taking care of your people building trust, it is the most important thing leaders can do.
Mark Brouker: Yeah, it just gets back to what you were saying before in terms of leaders having a model that right, I mean, if the leader is the one who's just slamming someone else terrible idea, that starts to get mirrored or mimicked by the team. And it's also it's so important that they both model that, but they also reinforce it, and they don't allow other people on the team to erode some of that trust is Yeah, then you're going to miss out on some of those great ideas because people are scared to actually raise their hand and give a contrarian point of view to flow out an idea that might be crazy at the time that turns out to be the idea that saves the company organization. Yeah, yeah. And I just literally this morning, I was on call early this morning as a west east coast on the west coast here. But it was a call about this group of hospitals. I'm not going to mention that company. But they had a couple of really bad events. I mean, seriously bad events. Had things happen like this at hospitals, just the way it is. What was interesting to two parts of the country. And what was the common between those two because I read both reports, was, there was a reluctance of people to tell higher reps, what was going on. And there was a culture of fear. And I talked to the CEO this morning, I told a story about basis, his company Amazon, where Amazon Prime came from Darren, I don't know if a lot of people know this. But it came from an idea from some guy who's probably making minimum wage down in the basement, put boxes together. That idea he vocalized it to his boss, it went up the basis pretty quickly. And they implemented it in private, Amazon Prime is a huge moneymaker. But my point is, how many other ideas have this kid have? Probably a lot, this was not his one and done, he probably had 10 ideas that were maybe stupid ideas, but no one crushed his spirit. They had our culture there, where they did not take bad ideas and crush spirits. So, what I were trying to create these hospitals and I think every company should be looking at this as you want the input from the people at the very lowest level because they know the problems. They know the solutions. And when you empower them and create a culture where they can tell you some more intel, the better you can solve the crises that are going to be coming.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, that's a great point. And I think that as leaders, we do need to push that out into the organization that they need to have ownership not just to be accountable for their KPIs for what's in their job description, but they need to have more of that ownership, Ownership mindset. Because they are the ones that are hearing about things. First, they're hearing about competitors, they're hearing about complaints about their product or service. But I also think it goes bottoms up. And I encourage people, even if they're on the front lines of an organization as a sales rep or a customer service person, to really step up. And I think that's our responsibility, especially within organizations, when we've seen just a profound failure of leadership at the top across just you name it, insert industry company, organization, you've seen it. And I think, even as the rank and file, the frontline need to step up and actually assume that stance of a leader. So, I think that's our jobs, as well as we need to hold them accountable. We need to really be leaders because that's how we can create strong, agile organizations that can adapt over time as new competitive threats come in new changes. And obviously, change is probably one of the few guarantees in life. Right. So great point. I love what you said about that, in terms of we all have to take ownership of that and be leaders.
How Empowering Employees Through Psychological Safety Will Lead to Better Ideas [26:02]
Mark Brouker: Yeah, just share with you real quick, it is fascinating, I find it fascinating that both these hospitals have this value that it is how do they put it, you must have the moral courage that folks at the very, you know, individual contributors must have the moral courage to speak up. Well, that's a hell of a lot easier when you got a boss who's willing to listen, it's a hell of a lot harder when you have a boss who you bring an idea if they roll their eyes or literally shut you down. So, it's not up to the individual contributors to bring this stuff up. Obviously, we want them to, some people have a lot of courage will do it. But it's up to the leader to create that culture that will embolden these folks and give them the space to safely bring these things up. So, I had a hard time with that. So, you know, don't you can't demand these people say something, if you got a crazy leader down there who's always shooting people's ideas, I No one's gonna say anything. You got to train the leaders to react or behave appropriately. And in the book, we talked about it. It's all about your behaviors as the leader that creates the culture, it drives the culture drives performance.
Darren Reinke: I really like that what you said in terms of you're creating that space for them to actually share some of those things. So yeah, it really is. The onus is on the leader to actually create that space to make it create trust, create safe for you to float up a new idea that maybe crazy or seem crazy at the time.
Mark Brouker: Yeah. And again, you know, for every good idea, there's probably nine bad ones. But again, you got to keep those ideas coming. You don't know where the gold is.
Darren Reinke: Absolutely. So, what else? So, I know you talked about a lot of things in your book, you talk about knowing your staff, you talked about being visible earlier, talks about respect, don't ignore good or bad performance. You talked about optimism, continuously learning the art of leadership, like what else, you want to provide in terms of what you've learned over your career in the military and beyond in terms of how like, what's so important about has that drive trust?
Why Listening is the Secret to Becoming a Great Leader [27:40]
Mark Brouker: Yeah, yeah, I guess the one thing I would say it's under respect there, and you know, respect sounds so trite, you know, obviously, every company has this in their policy procedures, we will treat our customers and each other with respect, and it's all good. But what does that mean? What does that look like? Well, what it looks like is, you know, a silly example, but a leader whose talks too much, and just monopolizing the conversation, doesn't respond to emails in a timely manner, amongst a million others. But I guess the one thing that the ultimate form of respect, when you think about this, Darren is listening. And listening with your heart is Collins policy, who's obviously one of my fans, and he's just a tremendous leader. But if there's one thing I could convey to the leaders out there, or listening in to folks who aspire to be leaders, is if you can listen better, you are going to set yourself apart as a leader. And listening is hard, man because you're always thinking the next thing, you know, next thing to say. But listening with your heart and giving people the space to convey their thoughts and concerns is the ultimate form of respect. And leaders can. No, I was never good at it. I was always thinking the next thing to say, I'm still working on it. But listening is the ultimate form of respect. And if I could convey one thing that leaders can do better, work on your listening skills.
Darren Reinke: Great point because it's Yeah, instead of saying, listening to find the next smart thing to say, to be the expert, it's also the guess back to the don't know, but listening truly from your heart, and focusing on that other person and their agenda. And so, not just thinking about that smart thing. For me, that was part of a hard transition from being a consultant to being an executive coach was not just thinking for that next smart thing to say not trying to be the smartest person in the room, but really trying to listen, having empathy and trying to help them guide them to new awareness, new opportunities. So but it's hard, as you mentioned, yeah, it is hard.
Mark Brouker: And I think of what Jim Collins wrote that book, Good to Great. I know, what makes companies great. And one of the attributes of great companies is a humble leader. And humble leaders are very good listeners. And I always think back on that, you know, just again, listening is the ultimate form of respect. It just gives people the space and ability to convey their thoughts, concerns, and you can have a much stronger team when you, when you do that. Well.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to think about respect. You said it's a bit trite and it can be overused. It's a very common corporate value, but actually how do you practice that I love that in terms of listening is The ultimate form of respect. But getting back to him melody, you know, it's I don't know, it's being those great leaders, they don't have to be the expert of experts. It's that really, that can actually really impact people's communication too I have found is that not always assuming you have the answer, and truly listening to those frontline people listen to people on your team listening, not just to your superiors, per se, or people higher in the organization about more expertise, but really listening outward. And I think that actually is a great sign of humility, but also can really underscore more effective communication as well.
Mark Brouker: Yeah, and you said something very profound as being the smartest person that ruins the opposite of humility is arrogance. Who, have you ever worked for an arrogant leader who thinks they know everything and they're the smartest person in the room? It just it is crushes creativity, it crushes companies, and the opposite? How do you prevent becoming arrogant? Listen, listening is the way to prevent yourself from being arrogant. So, and that's hard to do as you get higher up in the ranks, and you know, become CEO C suite making a healthy salary. It's easy to slip into arrogance thinking you know, everything, but just guard yourself from always listening, and you prevent yourself from, from stepping into arrogance.
Darren Reinke: I think also just check your title at the door, right? Don't just assume because you have a title that you have to be an arrogant leader, you can still be humble, you can still be a great lesson, you can still have respect for your people.
Why Owning Up to Your Mistakes Further Builds Trust Within Your Team [31:31]
Mark Brouker: Yeah. And you'll still make mistakes. I just got to say this real quick. I was teaching a couple of years ago, and this kid never said a word. They are the entire class. And they were about ready to end the class. He raised his hand. He goes, I got a question for you. What do you do when you make a mistake as a leader? And I said, Man, that's a great question. And I asked what do you think is what you think you need to own up to? I said, Absolutely, again, another interaction that can have a significant impact on trust because everyone in a new room knows you screwed up. And if you start deflecting it, they're trusting using a dissipated. So, as bizarre as it sounds, when you make a mistake, and I don't care who you are, you're going to make mistakes, own up to it. And don't try to hide it. And your people will trust you more. As crazy as that sounds.
Darren Reinke: It just gets back to what he said, every opportunity is a chance to create trust. And that's a wonderful one, right? When you make a mistake. I mean, how, how refreshing is that for you? If your leader actually owns up to a mistake, or just even falls in the sword for the entire team? Go look, you know, ultimately, they're the one who has, you know, Extreme Ownership, obviously, that concept, but it's such a wonderful way to build that trust amongst team members.
Mark Brouker: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Darren Reinke: Well, Mark, I really appreciate you coming on today. Where can people go to find more out about you about your book, everything that you're up to these days?
Mark Brouker: Yeah, well, thanks, Darren. So my website is Brouker Leadership Solutions. And it's brouker. It's b r o u k e r leadershipsolutions.com. The book, I think they're probably the easiest places Amazon Prime. But no, Barnes and Noble has it available on the shelf at many of the bookstores, but you want to get it quick. Probably Amazon Prime is easiest way to get it. And it's doing well. And I'm very thrilled about that. And I'm looking forward to reading your book to Darren, I've heard good things about it.
Darren Reinke: Oh, great. Thank you. Well, thanks for coming on and appreciate your time.
Mark Brouker: All right, Darren, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Darren Reinke: Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Savage Leader Podcast. My hope is you walk away with tactics that you can apply to become a better leader in your life and in your career. If you're looking for additional insight in tactics, be sure to check out my book titled The Savage Leader 13 Principles to Become a Better Leader From The Inside Out. Also, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and I would truly appreciate it if you would leave a review and also rate the podcast. Thanks and see you in the next episode.