Ep. 17: Courageous CEO Ryan Berman on Using Courage as a Competitive Advantage
In this episode, Darren Reinke chats with Ryan Berman, CEO of Courageous Brands and author of the book Return on Courage. Ryan discusses the tips and tricks you can use to implement courage in both your personal and professional life, why leaders need to readjust their views on millennials being entitled, and why courage is a competitive advantage that few companies fully utilize.
Courageous is a reinvention company that helps their partners fight fear, create change, and win.
Powered by RedCircle
Listen and Leave a Review/Rating on Any of the Following Platforms
SHOW NOTES
Why Ryan Gets Excited by Courage [1:10:]
How You Can Adopt a Courageous Mindset [3:45]
Why You Need Courage in the Messier Parts of Projects [6:55]
Why Courage Goes Beyond Being a Buzz Word [8:50]
How Ryan Convinces Organizations to Use Courage as a Differentiator [10:05]
How Ryan Re-shifts Leaders Minds Around Courage and Their Workforce [14:19]
Why Poor Leaders Turn Leadership into Cheerleadership [17:02]
Ryan’s First Experience with Courage [19:30]
How Courage Can Be Used as a Competitive Advantage [23:44]
The Ironic Relationship Between Safe and Unsafe [28:25]
How Ryan’s Passions for Story Telling and Soccer Led to His New Book Project [30:08]
SHOW LINKS
If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe, rate, or provide a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Google Podcasts. It only takes a few seconds and would be greatly appreciated!
For additional leadership tips, be sure to check out Darren's book - The Savage Leader: 13 Principles to Become a Better Leader from the Inside Out.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Darren Reinke: Welcome to The Savage Leader Podcast, where I interview leaders from all walks of life so that you can walk away with tips to apply to your life and your career. But this isn't your traditional leadership podcast because I believe that leadership tips come from successful entrepreneurs and business executives, of course. Still, they also come from unexpected places, like Navy SEALs, successful professional athletes, sports coaches, musicians, entertainers, and more. So let's dive right into today's episode; my hope is you walk away with something tangible that you can apply immediately to your life in your career. Today's guests on the savage leader podcast is Ryan Berman. Ryan is the founder of courageous, a reinvention company that helps their partners fight fear, create change, and when Ryan is also the author of return to courage and a co-host of a courageous podcast. Hey, Ryan, thanks for coming on today.
Ryan Berman: Are you sensing a theme for my bio?
Darren Reinke: I'm sensing a very strong theme that she could ask you a first question. So courage, I see the courage bootcamp courageous in the background. So what is it about courage that gets you excited?
Why Ryan Gets Excited by Courage [1:10:]
Ryan Berman: You know, such a, it's like, how much time do we have? I mean, it's a good first question. I honestly think, when I look back at some of the choices that I made, I didn't realize it at the time, like moving to a new city where you know, nobody or being a 21 year old, and moving to New York City, which is how I started. Back then it wasn't conscious, I wasn't aware of it, but they were courageous moves. And so it wasn't until I started sparring with the word, which is probably when I turned 40, that I started looking back in my own life. And it's like, wow, every time I seem to make a courageous move in my life, I'm happier. I'm terrified, but I'm happier for doing it. You know, I come from creative agencies. So like, every time we were working on a courageous idea, and we weren't sure if the client would buy it, like, my team would stay later, they'd be more pumped for it. And by the way, when when clients pick those ideas, they worked, the return was better. And every time by the way, we would get stuck on a sci fi idea or a boring idea. My team was less invested didn't work as well. And so like, that's really what kind of gave me a copy down the path of studying this concept of courage. And like I said, it's like, wow, it's every time we kind of go through with it. I'm a happier, lighter person, it's like going to the gym. So that was about five years ago, when I really started to study it. And now it's, it's really about helping partners see the differences between a careless move and a courageous one. That's really our job.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I love that. It's sounds like it'd be almost a mantra for you, is not only a mantra, it's a mentality. And I think, you know, if, let's say your guests have four minutes with us, you could stop here. Like, it can't just be a mantra, I think it has to be a mindset. And what happens is a lot of companies, you know, they work on their goal sets for the year, their goal setting, and then they, they think about their team, like who has the skill set to deliver on that goal set. And what gets left behind is the mindset that's needed to actually see something through and, you know, if you're going to need courage, then that's probably because there's a tenacious project where you don't have all the answers, and it's gonna take time and resources, it's not going to be perfect. So, I think the mindset is always more important than the mantra. Yeah, I mean, I think everything gets back to mindset, and how do you, I think, apply a lot of people might think, well, what are some practical steps like how to actually show courage or be courageous, but it really comes back to that mindset of courage? So can you talk to me a little bit about that? So like, where does that mindset come from? Like, how do you instill that in yourself and other people?
How You Can Adopt a Courageous Mindset [3:45]
Ryan Berman: Yeah. So I think this would be a good time to share my rabbit hole moment. What actually sent me down this rabbit hole. So you know, when you actually look at the dictionary definition of courage, it's the ability to do something that frightens one, if you pulled 1000 people in a company, like do you want to do things that are afraid at work, like 95% are taking a step back? Like no, like, I don't want to get fired. If I can just sort of, you know, we live I live in San Diego, you live in San Diego, like the Chief Executive Officer of my family, my wife has no interest in us leaving San Diego. So she's like, be very careful what you say. So you don't get yourself fired. Right. And this is, this is normal fair for most employees. They're compensated on an annual basis. So you're actually compensated, not to stick your neck out, just do enough to get to that next bonus, that next review, and we don't want to take on things that terrify us at work. And when I looked at that dictionary definition, I'm like, How is where's the utility in this? Like, how is this helpful at all like, Oh, this is something I'm afraid of. And I just wanted to come up with a better day. definition of courage that you could use in the messy middle of a project, which is where courage is needed. So my definition is very simply knowledge plus faith, plus action equals courage. And it has to be all three for it to be a courageous move. So think about it, your business, your leader, you're never going to have every bit of data, you need to make a call that you're never gonna have every bit of knowledge to make a call. And if you wait, and you wait to collect all that data, you're probably going to get passed by a competitor, which is why we need faith. And when we talk about faith, we don't mean it in the religious sense. We need it in the inner belief sense. We mean it in the intuition. Sense. We mean it in the your experience sense. And so think about how many times have you known the right move, and you felt it was the right move, and then nothing ever happens. And that's the action piece. That's the last piece. And so that's the irony is to have three in any directions is not courageous and knowledge and faith without action is paralysis. And faith in action without knowledge is reckless. And what we've learned is that knowledge and action, without faith, if you're just kind of going through the motions, and you're not on the inside, you're probably working on status quo, you're working on safe. And when you put ideas into the universe, that are safe in this media, obese world we're living in, it just kind of blend in with everything else.
Darren Reinke: So, I love that knowledge, Faith action. I'm a big believer, and you have to have the action piece you have to have for us, we talked about intention, reflection in action because I think so many things start with an intention, which may be what you're talking about, we talk about that mindset of that mentality, and reflection, which is a little bit different, which is more looking inside ourselves. But for me, I just so hell-bent on action, just because that's the way I live my life and what I want for my best for my clients. But talk to me a little bit more about that. He said something really interesting. You said courage is most important during the messy middle of a project.
Why You Need Courage in the Messier Parts of Projects [6:55]
Ryan Berman: Yeah, in some ways. Let's say the ultimate goal for any business or leader is this quest for relevance. Being relevant or staying relevant or chasing relevance. Those aren't journey words. Those are destination words. Landing in the lap of a customer, you're like, Wow, this is actually meaningful to me like my peloton. I love my peloton that is a meaningful tool that we now have in our garage thanks for the pandemic, super meaningful to me. And a lot of decisions that they made on the making of that bike along the way, is where courage showed up how to gamify it how to add badges how to have partnerships with Beyonce, or whoever they're bringing in. And so that's sort of the harsh reality is that the media does us no favors Hollywood does us no favors where they make courage sort of seem like a cherry on top, after the fact moment when the truth is where we need courage is in the messy middle of decision-making. And, and it's like if we don't know what we stand for, we never know when to take a stand. And a lot of the work that we do a courageous comes down to clarity, belief and forms for hard conversations. And when you have clarity in the messy middle, you then know how to make a call. And if you stay firm on your beliefs, you're going to actually click create what I call believership, you're going to create people that believe in the essence of the idea of the leadership team. And so, the more clear you are, the more people believe the more people buy in, The more consistent you are on that clarity, the more action you are taking. And that's, again, the outcome of courage is doing something meaningful, and hopefully staying relevant.
Why Courage Goes Beyond Being a Buzz Word [8:50]
Darren Reinke: I love is the idea of the journey versus a destination. And can you talk to me a little bit about how that relates to courage?
Ryan Berman: Yeah, again, I think when you chalk up courage to just the journey word that you need it in that space, then it comes down to what, which knowledge should you be following? Right? How do you build internal and external faith? And then where do you take action? And frankly, where do you where don't you take action? For like, like, and again, if you're clear, what's important to you. And this is, this is a conversation, in my opinion first about the values of the organization, like if the values are, are real, versus like cya values or tables take values, then when it comes down to making a hard decision, you can look to the values to help you make those informed decisions. And then again, then your staff knows what to expect from you because they're living the values as well. And that's how you believe faith. That's a good faith built up. So to me, it just comes down to that if courage, is nothing more than which knowledge should you be following, what are the fears that can be taking down your business and how to shrink down those fears? And then, you know, build up your faith and take action.
Darren Reinke: Yes, interesting is when you say courage. I think a lot about how companies will say fail forward, you know that could just be a word or a value or statement that people put on their walls. But courage is the same way. But how are you working with organizations to really reinforce that in terms of how do you get them to, to really infuse that idea of being courageous out into the organization?
How Ryan Convinces Organizations to Use Courage as a Differentiator [10:05]
Ryan Berman: Yeah, it's such a good question again. So one, I am an absolute crazy person on values. To me, I don't think it's sort of sad to see organizations not activating their values, they've got too many values. People can't remember the values, they're not rewarding their staff off those values. And, look, I wasn't sick core values are not iros. They're how the exceptional role and when they're real, and you put them in play, and you're rewarding your staff on the monthly, then your staff actually knows the behaviors, that is asked of them. And so if you're not rewarding, your team have those values, then that's the easiest way to start. If you feel like the values or Bs are really there to protect you versus drive behavior, then maybe it's time to have a hard conversation with your leaders about how do we like to reevaluate the values that we have. So, they mirror this next-generation workforce. And if we've learned anything about this current generation who thinks that my generation messed up this world, they were their values on their sleeves are driven by purpose. And if we don't figure this out, you're gonna have a serious attrition problem. So to me, it starts right there with the values of the organization, making them real. And like, again, maybe the best question I could ask today is, what do you think about that next-generation workforce? And they come in, they work for you? What are they really signing up for? Is it a job? Is it a career? Or is it a calling? And if it's a calling, and there's a genuine purpose? Behind the work, they're gonna want to stick around? They're gonna want to fight for you. It's its more than profit. It's its like, what are you contributing to the world?
Darren Reinke: Oh, yeah. And it's become so much more important, whether it's Millennials or Gen Z, just making sure that there is that purpose, it's got to be more than a job. And based on my experience, and what I've seen as well, which can lead to so much greater fulfillment as well, I mean, so much of the work that I do with leaders is instilling that sense of purpose. Because it's, you know, getting out of the bed in the morning, we have so many choices in our world just in, the more purpose we can have is going to just make us that much more motivated and just bring so much more out of our teams as well.
Ryan Berman: Yeah, this is a complete mindset shift for the leader, right? So if courage is nothing more than a prerequisite for change, right, and you're like, Well, when I grew up, I grew up, you put your head down, you work at a company for 20 years, you get a nice watch congrats, right, and you work your way up the ladder. And it's about profitability. And then you finally get to that seat, whether it's you stayed at one company, or you took what you learned and you started your own. And then you feel like this next generations entitled, they're not entitled, it's a different world for them than for you. They're used to growing up with 13 screens at and playing on all of them at the same time. The irony about the change is, it's not changed to the next generation. It just is, it's changed to the leader, who was like, Well, my world wasn't that world. Well, okay, this isn't my way or the highway anymore, your job is to create an environment where those next generation leaders feel empowered, and challenged and on board, and committed. And I think that is the hard part is when you can actually step out of yourself into the shoes of somebody else. To me, that's where courage is needed courage to like, okay, they're not driven by just profitability that driven by purpose. Now, think back to your company, like how are you going to actually provide that for your staff and your customers?
Darren Reinke: But that's really hard. I mean, expecting an executive to, to step out of themselves and go, I'm actually the one who needs to change. It's not these entry level workers that want more purpose. They want more flexibility, whatever it is, they want, what they value, but it's they need to change. How do you go about making that shift? Like, obviously, it gets back to being courageous, but what are some specific things that you do with those folks?
How Ryan Re-shifts Leaders Minds Around Courage and Their Workforce [14:19]
Ryan Berman: Yeah, I think the first thing we try to do is really have them deconstruct the word leader. And this is so hard for leaders to hear. What is the leader? If nobody is following the leader? Are you a leader? Bosses are not necessarily leaders and leaders are not necessarily bosses. So who is worth being followed? Like, am I worth being followed? Are people going to follow me? This is why I have a gripe with the word leadership and I sent it already earlier, but like, I like the word believer ship, because I think the believers ship is the group that is respected. for making believers across the organization, make believers out of your board, make believers out of your staff make believers out of the customers. Leadership. Sometimes what happens is it's like what one person feels like the leader like they're on an island by themselves. When you're only as good as the team, the team is the believer ship. And so I think that's the goal is like, Do you have a team that you can genuinely believe in and then create more believers out of?
Darren Reinke: Yeah, I love that. extending beyond the word leader to believers ship, I think a lot about the word that I really don't like, which is supervisory, which just connotes something in the 1800s. And then it's manager and sick. Well, that's a little bit better. But now it's about managing tasks and deadlines and resource and then it's leader, believer, and something I focus on as coach. So how do you actually get more out of people, and so much of that requires that servant leadership mindset. But it connects back to a lot of what you're saying, as well as it's like a, an evolution along that continuum and developing to whether it's a coach or a believer.
Ryan Berman: Yeah, I think they're both needed. You know, what's your take on mentor? Do you have a feeling on mentor either way?
Darren Reinke: I mean, I think it can be really positive, I think it's a little bit different than all of these things. But to me, I think about a mentor is someone who's gone through this many of the things that you've gone through, so less of a coach, which is more of a guide, and helping you create awareness to what you didn't understand before weren't aware of. Whereas a mentor is a little bit more of someone, I think, similar. But to me, I think about the mentors I've had, they've already walked through the fires that I'm trying to walk through now. And by the way, I think they're incredibly powerful. I've experienced personally, but also for other people as well. What about yourself?
Ryan Berman: Yeah, no, I'm curious. Because it's like, I think you're probably right, like it's not. So in the fire still, like you're kind of bringing that outside perspective, which might be necessary when often we drink the Kool-Aid once we get stuck inside an organization. So that perspective from the outside world is nice. I really like Coach though, too, I think there's something to it. This is what happens when you get a writer on the show, too, which is, like, if award's taken, I'm going to make up a word.
Why Poor Leaders Turn Leadership into Cheerleadership [17:02]
Ryan Berman: I think poor leaders turn leadership and a cheerleader ship, you know, and they start raw right to their staff, when what the staff really wants is the truth. And, you know, I've got my courageous podcast, and one of the sad sort of insights that keeps coming up, Darren is like, wow, now in the workplace, a courageous act is just telling the truth. I mean, that is so sad that just being honest, and not having a political conversation, and saying, You know what, this isn't good enough, like we can be better, or, Hey, I expected more of you. And maybe I expected more of me as well. And just the hard truth. And the amount of time you'll pick up by just kind of bringing the truth. I'm thinking back to a specific conversation I had with one of the leaders at snap. And she's like, you know, it's sort of, I just try to keep it real with my team. We don't have time for anything else. But to keep it real. That is an act of courage, which is fascinating to me.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing as well, whether it's truth or another word I hear similarly as candor. And I've worked with so many people and seeing teams that they value that candor until it's turned around on them. So, I think it's really important that you contextualize it, you know, in service of their growth in service of their mission. Something just not as a slam to someone's I've heard people say, you know, just blow someone up and go, Hey, I'm just being truthful. It's like, yeah, you are, but you're also dishonoring. That word. Yeah.
Ryan Berman: And your asshole I'll go, I'll go there and say it right, like, right, what is it people join companies, but leave bosses? Is that what the cliché is? Right? So. So, I think there's a thoughtfulness to the way you lead, there should be there's, that means there needs to be awareness, and you need to, like you said, we go back to the leader being able to step into the shoes of, of somebody else. So, they are they asking the right questions. Another thing I've loved that I've heard recently is, especially during the pandemic, it's not just about listening to your team, but it's remembering what they're saying. And then bringing those stories back. And other conversations as like listening is one thing, remembering is something else. And you're just trying to find genuine ways to connect with your team and understand what they're going through, get the most out of them.
Ryan’s First Experience with Courage [19:30]
Darren Reinke: So, take me back a little bit. I'm curious, little Ryan. How did courage first show up for you?
Ryan Berman: I believe my parents, so we're gonna do this. Like, I think it started when I was eight years old. And I don't need to, like, lie down on a couch and cry. This was a great memory. I have an older brother who's four years older than me. I grew up in outside of Washington, DC in Potomac, Maryland. And I'll never forget my brother coming home from summer camp. And he went it was a sleepover camp, a month-long camp. I was seven years old. And I was like, I want to go to that camp. And like, I kicked and screamed until my parents sent me. And so, the next year when I was eight, I was on an airplane, flying four states away to North Carolina, to a camp called Camp Seagull, and was down there for four weeks and absolutely fell in love with it. I was in cabin two of 64 cabins. So, one of the youngest kids there. And you know, you wonder why I live 3000 miles away from my family now. They taught me to be independent at a young age and go live a courageous adventure. And you know what I think about all the little moments I've been able to experience at it, it was going to the south and seeing what life was like down in the south and recognizing that, while people down here are different, and you know, as an observation was, that was interesting. And then, you know, I spent a summer in California, and it was like, wow, people out here are different. They're laid-back and then go to school, upstate New York, like, wow, people here are different, right? They're more forward. And so, you know, there's some statistic that of the 340 million Americans and 50% of us live 50 miles from where we were born. So, the apple really never falls far from the tree, we never really leave what we know. And when I think about return on courage, as much as I wrote it because I wanted to inspire teams to be more courageous. There's all these little extra bonuses that came out of the process. I'm sure we're aligned on this, you know, with your book, too, like, when I think about my two kids, who, by the way, are eight and five. I'm like, You know what, I hope they live a courageous life, I want them to go live a courageous adventure. Now, I can't force them to read the book. Actually, if I tell them to read the book, they probably won't just because I told him to do it, right. They gotta figure it out on their own. But you know, my wife, and I have very, a very different stance on this. Like, I want them to go live an awesome life, get out of here, go see things report back. My wife's like, oh, no, wherever the kids live, will live. Like, that sounds terrible. Unless they're like Bali, then it sounds great. So, I think like, when I think back to it all, I was just this curiosity to go check stuff out and start to realize that we're all very different. And that doesn't mean one is right or wrong. It's just that we're all very different. And once you understand that different, and it becomes more normal for you, you know, you do it again and again. And again, it's like a muscle, then all of a sudden, you don't mind traveling, when you're 10 years old, or you're 12 years old, you're not afraid to go do those things.
Darren Reinke: That is like a muscle. But that's also a mindset, I'm sure people are just terrified by that idea, people will live close to home. For me, I always loved changing. For me, the first time I was immersed in a foreign culture we lived in Switzerland in, and I went to a Swiss public school was nine years old, and had to learn not only High German, which is the national language, but also Swiss German, which is a totally different language. And that was hard man. But then the next time you jump in, it's a little bit less scary boom, dropping into Barcelona and learning Spain and going abroad to Milan moving to Brazil and starting a company and learning those languages, it becomes more and more familiar, but it still requires courage each time along the way.
Ryan Berman: And I get to see your face, you know because we're you know, we've got video here. So, it's almost like a badge of honor for you. It felt like a badge of honor, like it was hard, but you did it. And to know that you went through something that a lot of people don't. And I think that is the sort of two big key takeaways from being courageous.
How Courage Can Be Used as a Competitive Advantage [23:44]
Ryan Berman: I think there's a, there's a less emotional, if I'm running a team, I'd want to now and then there's the emotional side of it. So one, I believe when teams learn how to activate courage, it is a competitive advantage. If you get the whole team playing off the courageous playbook, and we're all speaking the same language. And we're all moving at the same speed. And we're all not afraid to have hard conversations. And we're all clear on what we're doing. We all believe in each other. That is a massive competitive advantage. The experts suggest that 95% of us are freezer flight. So, that means that like 95% of companies are basically driven by fear. While 5% of companies are driven by action, by courage. So, which would you rather be? Would you rather be in the 95%, or the 5%, like I'll take in the 5%, right? Like that is we can teach you knowing that those companies are going to get out of their own way. They're just going to spin, they're going to stay stale, or scared. That's a massive competitive advantage for the 5% that figure it out. And then the emotional benefit I think this is personal life as much as professional life is like, just being courageous. Getting through those hard things actually makes you happier. When you actually go through it even when it's hard, and you face that fear, and you go through that fear and like you learn a new language, or you go to a new city, or you go to a new company, and you're you're scared, and then you start to learn the language, you start to understand the people, you start to have real conversations, and you get through it, you actually are happier person by going through it. And so, there are so many benefits for taking on that change. And going through that fear. You just have to take that first step. Without that action piece, there is no courage.
Darren Reinke: There's so much richness to what you just said, just wanted to dive in a few of those things. And one of the premises of writing my own book is that I believe there's an opportunity for everyone in an organization to step up as a leader, for so many reasons that I won't go into. But what I love what you're saying is courage, which I can imagine a lot of times people think, oh, that's the role of the leader, or the manager, they need to be courageous to make decisions. But you're saying No way. We're pushing this down to all of us organization because we need everyone to be courageous because I think about even a frontline customer service person might be the first person that hears about a new threat or a new opportunity, a new pain point from their customers. To me, that's leadership. And I can imagine that would take courage as well.
Ryan Berman: I would almost, and we're singing the same song, by the way, but like, I would almost flip it. If I'm a leader, the data point that you have a successful company, is if it doesn't come from you. Right, it's bottom up. It's the other way, like you've hired Well, if those are coming to you, not from you, that the expectation is that you can be courageous, you know, have you read fast advance's book on Elon Musk So you know, I think he hired the first 1000 people at the company. So, the book says, so like, there's something to that like that. That is how important your people are like that you would be that thoughtful, that deliberate, slow down that much to make sure you have the right people so that you don't have to make those decisions. And so, yeah, courage to me, it's not about top down. It's about bottom up as well.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, courageous to hire people that are smarter than you that are subject-matter experts are just better at things. And that takes a heck of a lot of courage. Because I know so many people are, they're frightened to death of that idea about looking like they don't know the answer to everything. But that to me is true leadership and true courage and that sense.
Ryan Berman: Totally agree. And it's so hard to say, I don't know, you know, I don't know, like, does anyone know? I don't know, how are we going to figure this out? This past week, I ran a session. And the CEO at the end of the session, pretty much acknowledged that her executive team, and I was like, yeah, like, hey, let's take a moment to realize how hard it is to say that, as fragile creatures, human beings, how hard it is to actually admit that you don't know. And I don't know if someone said that, to me, it will make me want to work harder for them. Not hold it against them. But it's just the way we're wired. It's hard to, it's hard to do that.
Darren Reinke: And getting back to your question about mentorship. And I've had a mentor in the past where she clearly had way more knowledge and expertise and edit at that time. But she really valued me and asked me what I thought, it was almost like this reverse mentoring in situations I have that was someone else who's a fantastic writer. And yeah, it was I superior to him, which I don't like that word either. But did he report to me? Yes. But also over time, that totally flipped. And he's been an incredible advisor and source of insight to me, and then just the same thing, and it'll company context as well.
The Ironic Relationship Between Safe and Unsafe [28:25]
Ryan Berman: Yeah. How do you, how do you create the arena for that conversation to happen, right? Like, that is sort of the irony of all of this is like, this relationship between safe and unsafe, that will always exist, right? Like, is it a safe place for us to have a hard conversation? Like that's, the juxtaposition is pretty solid. Or, in some ways, I always like to say, hey, if you're risk averse, unbeknownst to your current reverse, if you're in risk management, you're also encouraged management. It's the same conversation. And so now, it's like, okay, knowing that mentality, how do I help take the courage out of courage, like, what tools can I give you to make it feel a little less scary? To take on change, or our little tagline is your future is safe with change Sorry, that's the only safety there is. Right Change is hard, but the hardships of not changing will be far harder. And so, this relationship between these two worlds of safety, feeling safe to have hard conversations because if you don't, right, and this is not my line, I think Seth Godin said the safe is unsafe, safe is the most unsafe thing you could do, and you're sitting duck, if you don't start to move, and so it's hard for the leader to start making those courageous moves, those courageous changes, but we need to put the ball in play if we're going to make any change.
Darren Reinke: There reminds me of a quote, I think, by Mario Andretti and I'll totally blow this quote, but he says something like whenever I'm driving so fast, where I feel out of control, that's where I'm winning. That's where I'm beating the competitors.
Ryan Berman: And it's like right on the line. It's so good. I think you nailed it. I don't know the quote. I like it.
Darren Reinke: Yeah. Let's say exactly like that for better. So speaking of courage, so you've got a pretty exciting new project that not sure if you can talk about but talk to me about the new book project you're working on. Yeah,
How Ryan’s Passions for Story Telling and Soccer Led to His New Book Project [30:08]
Ryan Berman: I had a project that fell in my lap about 15 months ago that I just couldn't say no to. And so if you ask me like what do I love outside of like my family, it's its stories, and its soccer. About 15 months ago, I did some work with the San Diego loyal there they're in the USL this is sort of the step league to Major League Soccer here. But Landon Donovan is, quite arguably, the greatest male US Soccer player that we've produced for America is part owner and coach of the San Diego Loyal. At the time, the job was to just sort of run their off site. And then that turned into helping them set the values of the organization and start to work through the process of courage. And where it landed, was trying to build a genuine relationship with land. And one thing led to another, and he had been talking about writing his memoir and asked me if I would, if that interested me, and it was an honor. I mean, it was just like, he said, No, you know, no guarantees, but if I was is I was interested, let him know. I was like, I don't see how I could say no to that, like, as a storyteller that loves the game that played the game. Now, I joke, Landon was an all star, and I was a half star growing up, you know, playing soccer, but realize that like, Oh, my goodness, what if all of that soccer growing up was nothing more to prepare me to help him tell his story. And so, we are about a week away from delivering the rough draft to Landon and his agent. And the goal is to have the book out by World Cup, which is next year in November. And it is very much in line with courage brands, you know, he's he has lived a courageous life. And I, he's been very deliberate and not sharing a lot about what happened to him. So in the spirit of not giving away I will say, how do you go from being raised in 900 square feet with a mom, who was a special ed teacher and often was working all the time. And dad really wasn't in the picture early as the greatest player is, the US has produced. And that's the story. It's really using soccer to tell other stories. But of course, we cover all the amazing things he's done on the field as well.
Darren Reinke: I mean, talk about courage, right? I mean, you just raising your hand and saying yes, you couldn't say no. But to write a story, a memoir, no less about an American icon and athlete and wanting to make sure you tell that story authentically to him. I mean, that takes a lot of courage to say yes to that.
Ryan Berman: I mean, it does. It's got everything, by acknowledge where I hear you and again, you know, you read my first book, which is a very different type of book, right? I mean, in some ways, I guess in some ways, there are similarities. They're both listening tours, right? They're both. They're both going out and interviewing. I mean, I've probably had 70 hours of interviews with Landon and Tim Howard and Michael Bradley and Bruce Arena, and his mom and his dad and his sister. And just like on return on courage, it was sitting with astronauts and Navy SEALs and tornadoes. The process was similar. It wasn't like, Oh, I'm so smart. And here's what I think on my soapbox. I really went and listened to all these people that were doing it and then just sort of reported back. And so, you know, over the last 12 to 14 months, he had enough belief in me to honor his story. And it doesn't mean he's gonna like it. He hasn't seen anything yet other than very little, that, thankfully, he has liked, but it really is just an honor to tell his story to the world. And people said to me along the way. You know what, he's a great soccer player, but he's a better human. And you're like, Yeah, right. And then the more time you spend with them, the more you realize that's the truth. So, it makes it easy to, to want to work hard for somebody like him.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, which gets back to just being a great leader to you know, being a great human, someone who shows up for their team members. It's not just about themselves. It's not just about ego.
Ryan Berman: And it's not a gain, I think when you hear the story, I will say, so this is what I get my if I had to guess what the book is about. It's kind of classic storytelling. Like, I think he set out to be the greatest, you know, quest to be the greatest soccer player and where he landed was being the greatest version of himself. What does that mean to be a world-class? Human, not just a world-class athlete.
Darren Reinke: I love that. Beautifully said.
Ryan Berman: Thanks, man. Well, hopefully we can say in the book. Well, I've got 100,000 words. It'll be interesting to see what the editor does, but well, just to a complete joy to go tell the story.
Darren Reinke: Yeah, be fantastic. Look forward to reading that. So, is there anywhere people can go to find out about that book or to preorder, Is this too early in the game?
Ryan Berman: You're the first to hear about it. You know, I mean, we're way too early. I will say, you know, I talked about it on my newsletter a little bit, but we're not it's not even going to be out till November of next year. And it'll it'll run in parallel with the World Cup.
Darren Reinke: So hey, Ryan, I really appreciate this conversation, you taking the time to come on the show. So, where can people go to find out more about your company about your book and your podcast?
Ryan Berman: Yeah, I guess if, if the book again, sorry, not the landed book. But if return on courage sounds like your cup of tea, I would go to return on courage.com or they have it at Amazon. And if, if my voice hasn't thrown you, and you're still here, I actually did the audible, which was a lot of fun. So you can grab the audible if that's your thing. Ask for courageous, it depends on if you're looking for leadership, then it's courageous.io. If you're looking for a team to come in and help you kind of figure out the clarity side of your business. I always like to say we're, we're a bit like a special forces that helps you pinpoint your special and then operationalize that special. I would go to courage brands.com. Any of those work, I'm on LinkedIn, shoot me a message. And I will say this there, and if any of your listeners are curious about their own personal values, they want to get down to their own values. Permission granted to email me at Ryan Berman at courage brands.com. And we'll get that over to you.
Darren Reinke: Fantastic. I'll put all that in the show notes. Well, Ryan, thanks for coming on today. I really do appreciate it.
Ryan Berman: Thanks Darren. Appreciate it, buddy. Be good. Let's do lunch soon.
Darren Reinke: Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Savage Leader Podcast. My hope is you walk away with tactics that you can apply to become a better leader in your life and in your career. If you're looking for additional insight in tactics, be sure to check out my book titled The Savage Leader 13 Principles to Become a Better Leader From The Inside Out. Also, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and I would truly appreciate it if you would leave a review and also rate the podcast. Thanks and see you in the next episode.