Ep. 30: Old Navy Co-Founder and Board Member Jenny Ming on Why Strong Brands Focus on Their People
In this episode, Darren Reinke chats with Jenny Ming, Iconic Brand Builder, Experienced Board of Director and CEO. Jenny discusses how she developed her authentic leadership style, why she never viewed joining Old Navy as a risk, why an organization’s people are their most important asset, and so much more!
Jenny Ming is a retail fashion industry executive who served as the president and chief executive officer of Charlotte Russe and was president of Old Navy. Business Week magazine named her one of the nation’s top-25 managers in 2000. She also appeared in Fortune magazine’s 2003 and 2004 lists of the 50 most powerful women in American business.
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SHOW NOTES
Jenny’s Early Interests as a Kid [1:09]
Why Jenny Believes Working on the Retail Floor is the Best Place to Start in Fashion [3:17]
How Jenny Embraced Authenticity in Her Leadership Style [7:14]
How Jenny Developed Confidence Early In Her Career [9:35]
Why Jenny Believes Confidence Is Within All of Us [11:10]
The Journey of Jenny’s First Company: Old Navy [13:42]
Why Jenny Didn’t Take Fashion Seriously, But Took What She Did Seriously [17:40]
How Old Navy Continued to Evolve Overtime [19:55]
Jenny’s Advice to Stay Relevant and Adjust to Customer’s Evolving Needs [23:35]
Why Transitioning to Being a Board Member Was Difficult For Jenny [29:02]
The Future of Brands and Consumers [30:38]
Jenny’s Advice on Cultivating a Strong Mission and Purpose Within Your Organization [35:38]
Jenny’s Tips for Engineering Alignment [38:22]
Why Jenny Loves Mentoring Women and Women of Color In Leadership [40:30]
Why “People” is the Most Powerful Leadership Lesson Jenny Has Learned [42:26]
Jenny’s Advice for Navigating Risk In Your Career [45:10]
SHOW LINKS
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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Old Navy Co-Founder and Board Member Jenny Ming on Why Strong Brands Focus on Their People
[00:00:00] Darren Reinke: Welcome to The Savage Leader Podcast, where I interview leaders from all walks of life so that you can walk away with tips to apply to your life and your career. But this isn't your traditional leadership podcast because I believe that leadership tips come from successful entrepreneurs in business executives of.
[00:00:21] Darren Reinke: But they also come from unexpected places like from Navy SEALs, successful professional athletes, sports coaches, musicians, entertainers, and more. So let's dive right in to today's episode. My hope is: You walk away with something tangible that you can apply immediately to your life and your career.
[00:00:42] Darren Reinke: Today's guest on the Savage leader podcast is Jenny Ming. Jenny is an iconic brand builder, experienced board of director and CEO. She is currently on the board of Levi Strauss, Kaiser Permanente, Poshmark, affirm, and Kendra Scott prior to her current board positions. Jenny co-funded old Navy was the CEO of Charlotte Rousse.
[00:01:03] Darren Reinke: Jenny, thanks for coming on today.
[00:01:04] Jenny Ming: Thank you for having me. It's really a pleasure to spend time with you.
[00:01:10] Darren Reinke: And so, take me back to the early days of Jenny main. What kinds of things were you interested in? Was it fashion and apparel always, or did you have other interests?
[00:01:18] Jenny Ming: Definitely have a lot of other interests.
[00:01:20] Jenny Ming: I immigrated with my family to San Francisco when I was nine years old. In middle school. I fell in love with home economics. Of course, people like now probably say, what is that? It's domestic science. So you could say, but there's a piece of it in there is about fashion. It's really about sewing.
[00:01:37] Jenny Ming: I was always very good about cooking, sewing child development. So, I, when I went to college, I majored in home economics and I wanted to be a home T. My junior year, the California school system decided home-ec was just not academic enough. So, they decided to cancel it in all our curriculum.
[00:01:57] Jenny Ming: So here I am studying to be a home-ec teacher before I can even graduate. I was out of a job. So, I thought, gosh, what can I do? And my boyfriend who is now, my husband, said you should be a buyer. You love clothes. Seriously, you have to remember this. I was 20, 20 years old. So, I thought, yes, I do love clothes.
[00:02:18] Jenny Ming: Yeah. So, I took some merchandising class. I took some marketing class. I took some fashion design class. So, when I graduated, I joined Mervyn's as executive training program is to train me to be in retail, fashion meets. So, that's how I got started, but yes, I think if I could be anything besides, in a power retail probably would be something to do with food because I love cooking.
[00:02:44] Darren Reinke: Always good to follow your passion, follow your purpose.
[00:02:47] Jenny Ming: Yes, absolutely. But so many of us at that age don't really know what our passion is, so I was very fortunate. I knew what I love to do. And I would say. Incorporate that as a career.
[00:03:01] Darren Reinke: Yeah. Talk to me about some of the early career challenges.
[00:03:03] Darren Reinke: It sounds like it's really exciting because you talked about as a trainee at the very first level entry-level job in fashion and apparel, and then obviously rising to the very top is what were some early challenges for you?
[00:03:13] Jenny Ming: I think the earliest, earliest challenge because you start from the store, which I actually still believe that any contact with your customer, your consumer, is a really great place to start because you know who you're serving, who you're trying to.
[00:03:27] Jenny Ming: It's always in the store, but I have to say the biggest challenge actually with my parents, especially on my mind. She just, four years of college here, I am. She saw it as a clerk in the store. She said, gosh, I can't believe you went to college. And you were just a salesperson. So, I was trying to explain to her that it could lead to a career.
[00:03:46] Jenny Ming: So it was really overcoming. Parents expectation was one of my challenge. Second, I would say probably my biggest challenge with people didn't take me seriously. Just being an Asian woman. I was soft-spoken. I was in fact I think my store manager said to me, I think I was three months into the job, and he said, Jenny, you're not going to make it because you're just too nice.
[00:04:06] Jenny Ming: You let everybody walk all over. And I was like, gosh, this was my first leadership lesson was that I wasn't a good manager or leader. So, I did not know what to do. Cause you know, I three months into my career. So, I want to say that I couldn't make it. I didn't even know what to do. So, I bought a department manager for linens or domestics.
[00:04:26] Jenny Ming: I brought everybody together and just say, Mr. Francoise said, I'm not going to make it. Because I'm just too easy for all of you. You guys will walk all over me. So, you're probably going to get a new man. And all of them say, oh, we don't want any new manager. We really liked you. So, what do we have to do?
[00:04:41] Jenny Ming: I said you guys need to stop talking and work. And if you want to talk to each other, I could schedule breaks. And when you're working, when you're on a floor, you really need to focus on your work and help customers. They said, okay, We don't want a new manager. We really liked you. So, what I learned was that being transparent, telling them what they need to do, whether it's the goal with what they need to accomplish.
[00:05:05] Jenny Ming: And having an open dialogue taught me how to be a manager because people don't know what your expectation is. If you don't give them a set-up an expectation. And when something is not working, explain to them why. I know those are very simple things, but those are very fundamental things being a manager leader.
[00:05:26] Jenny Ming: And I was very fortunate that I learned that very early on how to manage.
[00:05:32] Darren Reinke: It's interesting because I think sometimes people make the assumption, especially at the CEO level, that you have to be the loudest person, the strongest, most confident voice, very competitive, very fast moving, very risk-taking, but he gives such a powerful example of how you could lean into the person that you are as being, not that the loudest voice in the room, but you clearly command, respect and create trust and transparency through leading your own.
[00:05:55] Jenny Ming: Yes. I always say, if you went into a big room, a boardroom people would definitely not pick me as the leader, what, sometimes that's what surprises people, is not always what you expect, but how do you sometimes don't have to be the loudest voice, but with substance and to the point.
[00:06:15] Jenny Ming: And like you say, really, it's so important that leaders come in different shapes and sizes and age. I think that is even more important. It's not just default to, a white male at 50 something that's allowed us voice, it's something that I really believe in, and I devoted very much difficult.
[00:06:36] Jenny Ming: My entire career is really creating, helping develop leaders, especially women leaders of color.
[00:06:42] Darren Reinke: Yeah. I'd love to touch on a minute, but just take me back to that transition because how do you. Become comfortable. And just being who you are earlier on in your career, when you, the models that you saw that your boss at the time told you that you weren't going to make it because you weren't this other version of leadership that perhaps he expected, how did you like just to become comfortable with that and build your own leadership brand?
[00:07:03] Jenny Ming: Michael, when I graduated from college, we could come about. So, when I became a buyer, when I was, I think it was like 26, 27, I'm like, wow, gosh, I made it. In fact, I call this dispenses, bought that years later. And to say, you said, I wasn't going to make it. I just want to tell you, I became a buyer, and he laughed.
[00:07:23] Jenny Ming: He said, you know what, Jenny, you really need to hear that lesson. So, I think he did it purposefully, but of course at that time I was very hurt. So, sometimes, lessons like that really helped you through, it helps you come to grips with what you, who you are and what you believe in and where you need to do.
[00:07:42] Jenny Ming: And Mr. Francois really did that. Me, I think more importantly is when I became a buyer, I thought, gosh, 26, I said, it's 20 stuffs I made already. So to me, everything else is almost like icing on a cake. So, I have nothing to lose. But everything to gain. So, I'm never really afraid. And I also because it's more than I ever expected in my career already.
[00:08:06] Jenny Ming: I'm one of those people that love a new challenge. I love learning something new. So, I don't sit still. I'm always looking at gosh, especially when I was a buyer, and we accomplished this, but what does my next year of schools will be? What do I want to build? So, I think you, when you challenge yourself like that, I'm very comfortable in my own skin is because I think it's almost, I kind of light surprising people.
[00:08:32] Jenny Ming: Like I said, when, if you go into a room that you probably, I would be the last person you would think to be leading something. But when they find out, actually I am the leader. I love that giving people a surprise. So, it's because I think the unexpected sometimes give people, give them off guard.
[00:08:52] Jenny Ming: Especially coming from my business when I was a buyer, I did a lot of negotiating, so I think people don't expect the quiet Asian women to be so steadfast and straw. And being a leader and being a manager that thinking that you really have nothing to lose, but everything to gain is that you could put be your true self.
[00:09:11] Darren Reinke: That's an interesting mindset, especially I think about you as having accomplished so much. And you as an early buyer, it's almost like you have this mindset, you already achieved the top, but you had so much further to go. And how do you get that mindset of just nothing to lose, everything to gain when you were still really early in yours.
[00:09:27] Jenny Ming: You know what, I maybe being an immigrant. I think it was very much taught to me. My family, came from Macau and my parents give up a lot to bring all of us here so that we could have an education and do well in our career and do well in life. So, I always feel. I need to do better, or I'm excited to accomplish certain things.
[00:09:56] Jenny Ming: I think there's a little bit of that in my back of my head, but I also think it's an incredible feeling when you can accomplish something that you never expect to. Like I said, I don't think anybody expected. Yes. I think they expect it to be a bio, but I don't think everybody is, if you met me in high school, you met me in college.
[00:10:13] Jenny Ming: They would never think that I could be one of the founding member of a huge brand or be a president or CEO or a board member. But I think that there is that in all of us, but you have to want it. I think you have to have the passion that you want to achieve and learn, but also have. Maybe that's what they call grit to stay with something.
[00:10:35] Jenny Ming: And persevere. I think that kind of feeling is something that's always been in me.
[00:10:42] Darren Reinke: You talked about it's in all of us. And how do you, obviously if you're just sounds a case came naturally being an immigrant at the mindset of nothing to lose is how can people just bring that out in people, or how have you helped bring that out in other people?
[00:10:53] Darren Reinke: It sounds obviously you're very involved and passionate about mentoring women in leadership, women of color and leadership is how do you bring that out in people?
[00:11:02] Jenny Ming: First of all, Sometimes people just don't think they have it in them, or they give up there early. And I always try to tell stories about myself.
[00:11:10] Jenny Ming: It's just because if you know me later in life and later in my career, you just assume, of course, Jenny was the president or, oh, of course you could be a CEO. In my early career, you probably would never think that, so I always tell people, how I started, I wanted to get a home-ec teacher.
[00:11:29] Jenny Ming: Now I became a buyer because when something didn't work, then you think about what's next. What else are you excited about to do? And. Give tell them stories that if I could, seriously, I'm not just saying it. If I could really accomplish what I've accomplished, you can too because I, I went to a state university.
[00:11:48] Jenny Ming: I knew John home economics, so I don't really have a profile, that went to a prestigious school. I got an MBA and I was trained at so no, not at all. So, I think it's sometimes it's not what you. Where you went to school and what you, what company you are for, but is who really who you are.
[00:12:07] Jenny Ming: And then you have to believe in yourself, but you have to also want it. Nobody can make you want something. You have to want it. If you really want it, here are some of the things that you can do. So, I think it's really exposing people, the possibility of what they can do and what to do. Everybody wants to succeed.
[00:12:28] Jenny Ming: How and why really makes a difference.
[00:12:33] Darren Reinke: And you just gave two really great leadership lessons in vulnerability in terms of sharing your own story. And hey, you weren't always in this position, but also humility is just, those are such powerful leadership principles.
[00:12:44] Jenny Ming: I love sharing my stories is because I feel very fortunate to be where I am.
[00:12:50] Jenny Ming: And so I want people to know they can too. And that is the reason why, you know, when you asked, would I be on the podcast? I was more than happy to anytime I could, even one person is one more than I ever had.
[00:13:04] Darren Reinke: So let's fast-forward a little bit in terms of the old Navy story. Just, I love that.
[00:13:08] Darren Reinke: Obviously it's an iconic brand, and I was there and once it was up and running, but what was that like? How did the brand, what was the Genesis.
[00:13:15] Jenny Ming: Okay, let me start by telling you, I, we started the brand with 11 people, and I was employee number one. So Mickey asked me one day. In fact, I think I was telling him that I wanted to move.
[00:13:28] Jenny Ming: My family, my husband just got a new job in Hong Kong and I want, we want to move the family there. And we have a pretty large sourcing office in Hong Kong, and I love sourcing. So, I said, I'm sure you gotta find me a job there. And he said, oh, we just decided to start a new brand or a new business. And, we have a gap in the middle, and then we have a banana and then, but we don't play the mass value sector.
[00:13:52] Jenny Ming: And we thought that you would be. I stepped back. I'm like, gosh, I get to start a new business. But in the meantime I got a new job, but I knew I wanted to do this. So, I went home and tried to, try to tell my husband. I said, you know what? I got a new opportunity and I really love to do this.
[00:14:09] Jenny Ming: And, but he also had opportunities. So, people would always ask, when you have two career minded people, how do you make the decision? The good thing is my husband are very aligned. We make that decision. And our entire family, like what is good for the family? Not just for one person. So, after conversation he thinks, no, I think we should just, so my whole thing is where do you think our kids would be best growing up?
[00:14:32] Jenny Ming: Where in Hong Kong of the Bay Area. And it really came down to be the Bay Area. So, I got to do my startup. He decided to not do his opportunity. So, the reason I share this is because, so when it was, the NASA was going to do this. I have to tell you, 90% of people thought I was crazy. That was to be this huge risk because the gap brand is so well known, and I'm doing a startup that is not well known.
[00:14:56] Jenny Ming: And it's just, are you sure you want to do this? Jenny, this is risky. Seriously. It never entered my mind that this was risky. I thought that was an incredible opportunity. So, I w I sit back and say, gosh, how come I think is the opportunity? Why so many people thought it was a risk, and you know what?
[00:15:11] Jenny Ming: That was the difference, right? To me, it was, gosh, if it didn't work out, I would love to learn so much. I'm sure the gap would find me another job inside the corporation. So, I didn't think twice about it. So, we started with that. So, it's a new totally. We started in. February 1993. And by August of 93, we got product in two of 50 stores.
[00:15:38] Jenny Ming: So we took the bottom 49th store of gap brand. When we pulled it out, actually it goes 49 bottom, store lost money. In fact, we lost $200,000. No, we lost $2 million in those 40-nice store. And Mickey said, If you could break even, I would be very happy, but really it's important that when you do a startup to learn as much as you can because whatever you do, it doesn't affect a company.
[00:16:02] Jenny Ming: So do not be afraid to take risks and learn. That was a great lesson I never thought about. So, he did give us one store that we could start from scratch with our vision of what that brand could be. When we got product in the store in August right away. We could see how well it did. In fact, it was a winner from the get-go by September, October, we knew we had a winner, which okay.
[00:16:29] Jenny Ming: You and I both know many startups, and very seldom, very few times that you could have a winner immediately while only. It was a winner from the very beginning. So, we knew by October we were going to roll out and that we would, we actually, at that time was called gap warehouse, and we knew we had to find a new name and a new brand because gap warehouse seems like it's part of gap brands versus a new brand, a new identity.
[00:16:59] Jenny Ming: So that's how we got started. The rest I would say is history, as you would all.
[00:17:05] Darren Reinke: Yeah. So then you mentioned earlier, I think is interesting, as you said, you didn't take fashion seriously, but you took what you did seriously. Can you talk about that a bit? Yeah.
[00:17:14] Jenny Ming: So when we first started, we say, I think like everything else we say, what did this brand stands for?
[00:17:20] Jenny Ming: What do we want this company to stand for? And I love to say that. So, it stands for fashion value, family and fun. The great thing about it is now 25 plus years later, these four pillars of brand pillars still stands at old Navy. So, it really stands the test of time. So, fashion, of course, we want to be on trend value.
[00:17:44] Jenny Ming: We want to give the FA we want to give a consumer customer more than they expect because value is only a value when you give them more, not less. Not the same, right? If something costs $20, but it's really worth 40. This is when you get a great value. And then family it's all about not only the traditional families, family could be your friends, it could be your community.
[00:18:08] Jenny Ming: We want also the non-traditional family part of it. So, it's a very inclusive brand, which is still is today, but last but not least, Not taking clothing or fashion. Seriously. I don't know if you remember when you would get paid. We took fashion very seriously, and we say, you know what?
[00:18:25] Jenny Ming: Fashion should be fun. Shouldn't be so serious and clothing is important, but certainly not at the top of this, of everything, as a young family, you want to do. There's, you want to spend more money on education, and you want to spend money on war, on vacation or experience. There's some way down the line clothing.
[00:18:43] Jenny Ming: Fashion is important, but not that important. And we truly believe that. So, we want to give fashion at a great price that you would be proud to wear that you are on trend. So, that's why we had all these fun clothes on. We were the first to come up with cargo pants when PIP, everybody, has very clean khaki.
[00:19:02] Jenny Ming: We had cargo pet because we have pockets. I always say, let's have fun with fashion. And not take ourselves fashion seriously, but we take what we do very seriously is because we really have a purpose and a mission. And we tell that very seriously.
[00:19:19] Darren Reinke: How does the brand, if all over time, I know recently it was named one of the brands that matters is how did, what was that evolution like?
[00:19:26] Jenny Ming: I would say that the first five years. It was unbelievable. It was just really, we put all records, I'm talking about, we hit a billion dollars in less than four years. We were named the brand of the year. We were an ad week. We were everywhere. We want to what's for our store design. It was really incredible.
[00:19:47] Jenny Ming: But we all know that everything goes up also comes down. So, we expect it, it will plateau, even dip. So, we were ready for that. So, I think like any brand, the most important thing is you have to be relevant. That means you have to matter. So in fact, Nancy Green, who said current CEO and I worked together at old Navy, she was head of kids and baby, when I was there, she texted me.
[00:20:09] Jenny Ming: Of course I knew I saw that, that we, we want that award. Of course, you could still see that I have so much pride, though. And she actually texted me to tell me and I say, actually, Nancy, so funny. Because I was about to tell you congratulations. But I think like any brand you have to evolve with the time, you have to be current, you have to know what your customer, your consumer wants and connect with.
[00:20:31] Jenny Ming: So I think all of those things is very important that
[00:20:34] Darren Reinke: in that. And especially in retail and especially in fashion, I think we're all at the whims of the marketplace change, but gosh, just quarter to quarter, month to month, even as an incredible pressure just to stay relevant.
[00:20:46] Jenny Ming: What I think is this is something I actually learned from, Don Fisher, the founder of gap.
[00:20:52] Jenny Ming: He always believed that you have to change. You have to keep evolving. Is that he, one of his clothes, if you don't change your dye, and I know my son looks dramatic, but brands do die if they are not relevant or loved? So, you've got to really understand that. And I think the great thing about being fashion, it's in your DNA about being changed, changing all the time because fashion does change all the time.
[00:21:19] Jenny Ming: If you stay put. Then you're not on trends. So, I think it's in our DNA always look for what is the next, what is the next trend? What could it be? What is the possibilities of, your brand? What can it be? So, I think it is enough DNA about changes is about evolution.
[00:21:37] Darren Reinke: I think that's just as true for us as our careers in our careers and our, in our roles as leaders, is to stay relevant, to constantly grow and get better and learn.
[00:21:45] Jenny Ming: Yes, I am a true believer of that. I, I actually tell people and I really believe it. I don't just, I'm not just saying it. I feel like I know less about retail than I did 10, 20 years ago. And people like with scratch their head, what do you mean Jenny? I said because it's ever-changing.
[00:22:02] Jenny Ming: So when you think you'd know is when. Sometimes it was moved already. So, I consider myself a life learner. Like I just, first of all, I love the fashion business. I really love reading about the consumer mindset, especially I think the last two years during the pandemic, we think very differently. We want very differently how we connect with brands differently.
[00:22:27] Jenny Ming: What matters to us is differently. So, I think during this last two years and continuing now. I think there's been a lot of changes. So, it's been very interesting for me to read about it or stay on top of it. This, because there's been so many changes in the last two years.
[00:22:46] Darren Reinke: Talk about that a little bit.
[00:22:47] Darren Reinke: I think that's really interesting. And what would you, what are you doing to advise companies about how to stay relevant, to adjust to the new wants and needs of their consumers?
[00:22:56] Jenny Ming: So as I'm naturally I would not use my word, retired. Peace is not a relevant word to me. So, I actually am on many boards and being on different boards.
[00:23:09] Jenny Ming: One of my biggest thing is really how to stay engaged and how to be relevant because I'm no longer. And a working CEO, right? So if you no longer, the daily life is connected to consumer, how do you stay connected? So for me is being on all these boards and also challenges me. And so, I listen as much as I contribute.
[00:23:34] Jenny Ming: I probably listen more than I contribute, I should say. So, I learned from different companies, different brands and really how. I read as much as I can, talk to as many people as I can. And the great thing about the boys I'm on, they are very different. And she said, from health care to of course, apparel, retail, fashion, retail, globally, and Levi's, and Poshmark is a social commerce or, has a huge community.
[00:24:01] Jenny Ming: Affirm is a FinTech or, buy now pay later payment system. And, I'm on Kendra Scott, which is a jewelry brand that, that really focused, not only about having, jewelry, but it's also about giving back to your community. So, every one of these brands is, I would say, have a very strong mission and purpose, and it's very connected to whom they want to serve, and they are so different, but it's connected by a very focus on.
[00:24:34] Jenny Ming: Customer consumer patient or people. When I first, my first board action was on Kaiser. I was on it for eight years. I left for about seven and just rejoined this year. And I came on a fascia. I came up, oh, Navy. And then when they call me to see, was I interested of the board? I'm like, I know nothing about healthcare.
[00:24:50] Jenny Ming: Why would you be interested in being on your boy? And they laughed. They said, we have lots of people that know, medicine and healthcare. Hospitals and all of that, but you know what Jenny, what you know is about people oddly years in retail, that means, consumer, and we don't treat our patients like consumer.
[00:25:11] Jenny Ming: We need to influence them. We need to educate them so that they could make better decisions for themselves. We here to tell them with it, educate them, but they, in the end, they had to make the decision. I was very fascinated with that. I thought, gosh, is something that I never liked that because I was born of a healthcare system.
[00:25:28] Jenny Ming: But sometimes, you have to look beyond what you think. Sometimes we pigeonhole ourself that I was off of many other retail board and I pick Kaiser as my first sport is because I thought. Stretch myself and learn something new. You could tell by now that I'm one of those people that take risks and not afraid to learn something new, being uncomfortable is when you really learn the most, believe me, I sat through many board meetings.
[00:25:57] Jenny Ming: I feel like I was faking it. But then I always try to remember why I'm on the board. They don't need me Chi-Ming and about. A cure or medicine or health, hospital. They wanted me to tie in when it's talking about the patient delivery care system or how to connect patients with, the virtual care, they want to think about what the patients are thinking.
[00:26:20] Jenny Ming: So this is when I know, I have to be at the table and speak about that. That's how you say
[00:26:27] Darren Reinke: That definitely Kaiser Permanente is the board that really stands out of the other ones. The other ones that can, make sense. There are a lot of synergies between them, but that's remarkable, that'd be your first one also.
[00:26:37] Jenny Ming: Yes. The first time I went to the board meeting, I think there was 30 plus people around there was, I think there were 14 board members and then, and we all came from very different backgrounds and so it was pretty scary because it's a very, first of all, I always remember that taking fashion so seriously.
[00:26:58] Jenny Ming: Because it's not life and death, Kaiser is very serious. And, I always say, when we used to have to decide on a button, I'm like, okay, we mull over for an hour. We're not saving lives with this button. When you're in the healthcare system, of course, it is life and death is very soon.
[00:27:15] Jenny Ming: So it's a totally different industry, I really learned to appreciate every one of my boards is because you not only, like I say, learn about what they do, the purpose and mission, but the board members, I learned so much from them, the leadership team, I learned so much from that and being part of something bigger than yourself is so interesting.
[00:27:37] Jenny Ming: And so engaging. So, you could see, probably hear my tub and how much I enjoy being very proud to be on their board and their company.
[00:27:46] Darren Reinke: What was that like? What were that transitions? You obviously, you've talked about lifelong learning comfort with taking risks, but just thinking about that first board being jumping into Kaiser Permanente and just, but just you being a board member in general, what was that transition like for you?
[00:27:59] Jenny Ming: I would say. 'Cause I think all of us, especially myself, I'm used to doing operating. When you're on board, you're not operating. You don't get to do the doing it's about influencing is about telling you a point of view is about your experience you don't get to do, so I would say that was the hardest transition.
[00:28:22] Jenny Ming: And then the second-hardest transition is really about being in an industry that you actually might not be an expert. When you do is, then take your relevant experience and apply it to a different industry. And it took me, I would say, a few years to really learn how to do that. So, I would say that transition is never easy.
[00:28:42] Jenny Ming: Of course now after 15 plus years is much easier. I think I'm, you also have to really be connected to the CEO. Cause sometimes, not all the work is being done in the boardroom. So many of your work is being done outside the boardroom. Sometimes you're mentoring someone, or you want to connect, with their team.
[00:29:05] Jenny Ming: I come from a school that I will always want to contribute as much as I can, and I want to be available. I want to be engaged because otherwise why do, why are you.
[00:29:16] Darren Reinke: I love just to get a forward-looking view from y'all obviously you're right in the centerpiece of just so much from social commerce to FinTech.
[00:29:24] Darren Reinke: And obviously, your background in retail is, what do you think the future holds for retail? But I think even more importantly is just how has the nature of the relationship between brands and consumers changing, and how do you think it will change moving forward?
[00:29:36] Jenny Ming: I think that's such an interesting question, right?
[00:29:39] Jenny Ming: I came out of retail. It's all about product. At a spot marketing. It wasn't at that time, the beginning, that is consumer-driven. And now actually it is about the customer, but through technologies, probably even more and so that actually was reason why I was excited to join the posh mark and the farm board because the technology base right.
[00:30:04] Jenny Ming: And how they think, how they look at something, how they problem-solve is something very different than a retail brand. But today with technology, you could solve many different things, much more efficiently. First of all, you have a lot more data. We have a lot of data, but we just did not know what to do with the data.
[00:30:22] Jenny Ming: If you remember, in, in retail, but now using those data, you could even get closer to consumers and really serve them the way they want to be, sir. So, I would say retail, the first thing I learned is really get to know who they are. And how they want to connect with you is their decision. As many of multiple points of connection, you want to engage with them is how I would look at reach out today.
[00:30:51] Jenny Ming: Again, I came out with vertically integrated. We want to control the brand. The whole thing about controlling that you pulled the string. It really is less, so much less, about that today. It's more that the consumers aren't charged, they want to connect with you when they want to conduct. And how they see the brand and what does it value to them is a lot more important.
[00:31:13] Jenny Ming: So I would say digital data, all of that needs to be in your brand. I'm not even saying that's the future. It's here. It's been here, but how it evolves with that is what is going to be happened. And there's so many ways, as you say, it's not just e-commerce show, show commerce and how you pay for it is different.
[00:31:33] Jenny Ming: Just like affirm orthopedic, buy now, pay later. And how do you connect customers from different brands together? Isn't that the way, if you have the affinity for certain brands, you might now know enough data that here's another one that you could connect with, and you would know, and it would be right for you.
[00:31:50] Jenny Ming: I think there's so much information, but how you use this information also matters. I think that brands today has to have a purpose. When you take, you know what, it's just not good enough when you say, you know what, we just serving it up, but you have to have a purpose of mission behind why you do things you do, not only for the customer, but also for the employee that is in the company.
[00:32:13] Jenny Ming: When I used to think the old Navy brand, you step back. Yes, we have great product, but it's more than that, it is really about. Connecting being inclusive, being in the community or family that you belong to is about having great value and be proud of wearing something, giving you confidence.
[00:32:31] Jenny Ming: That was what the brand stands for. So, you have to think a little deeper than why you exist and what you want to accomplish with that.
[00:32:39] Darren Reinke: And you make a great point, especially in terms of mission, purpose from the employee perspective is, whatever you want to call this period in time. Right now, the great reshuffle, the great resignation is that's so important because we do have choices.
[00:32:52] Darren Reinke: Especially with the working virtually now as well, people just have access to markets they didn't have had previously. So just you really punctuate that need for purpose and mission.
[00:33:03] Jenny Ming: You know what I, I would add one more in here besides employees. How should we invest in. Your shareholders. We also look for brands that have purpose and mission.
[00:33:14] Jenny Ming: So I think today is really, it just doesn't fly if you don't have that. I think especially after the last two years, no more brands at doubling down a purpose of mission and doing more because they see more that needs to be done. Think about. All the show, show issues, brands awaiting in on it, which 10 years ago, you would never see that.
[00:33:43] Jenny Ming: It's almost important because consumer demand that you stand for something, and they want to know what you, what matters to you, what you care about because that connection matters to.
[00:33:54] Darren Reinke: Yes. I imagine, as you're saying these things, people are thinking, oh, that's just for, fashion apparel brands, consumer brands.
[00:34:01] Darren Reinke: But what advice would you have for just all leaders of all kinds in terms of what are the implications of that need for greater purpose and mission? And how can you, I would say retrofit is the right word, but some companies were born with mission and purpose? Obviously, Patagonia is a great example. Old Navy is a great example.
[00:34:16] Darren Reinke: Okay. Now I'm of course I'm picking. Apparel companies, but there's so many is what would your advice be? Or what is your advice that you work with companies on, in terms of how to bring mission and purpose? If they weren't founded on that principle?
[00:34:29] Jenny Ming: I think it could be a brand. It could be a team.
[00:34:32] Jenny Ming: So when I mentor and coach leaders, Sometimes they don't own the brand themselves, though. Of course, they belong to a brand or company, but it could be a team that what your team stands for. What is your mission and purpose? So, after I start from there, I can't even, I start, my mentoring session is very much what is your team of, what are you here to do?
[00:34:53] Jenny Ming: What do you want to accomplish? What do you stand for? And I start with that. And what do you value? What's your value of behaviors is another piece of a team or brand is. If you have that kind of alignment, this is where you, and you, not only that alignment and believe this is when a team works the best because you know what you want to do and how to go about doing it is because you have the same belief.
[00:35:23] Jenny Ming: And we have that at old Navy. And I think I chatted with you a little bit about that is we started with before. I would say co-founder, of course I had the merchandising piece, which is running up the business. I have the sourcing, the visual design of the store, the merchandise planning. Then we have a head of marketing PR, and then we have a head of product and design, and then we have a head of store and finance.
[00:35:49] Jenny Ming: So all four of us have very different skills. We were very short on people. So, we were very aligned what we want to accomplish. And we all know, and we had incredible respect and trust in each other. we knew what we need to do. And we went and did it. I think the best example when we opened 18th and six, our first flagship store in new.
[00:36:08] Jenny Ming: I had some idea what marketing was doing. I had pretty much, ideal, how to, you know what Kevin Lonigan and the store is, staffing. And I have, of course, I know about product because we are very attached to that. But when it all fell together and when we opened the store, it looked like one person's vision versus four leaders because we were so aligned, and we had trust in each other to do our part.
[00:36:32] Jenny Ming: This is when they're really because we had a purpose, we had a mission, and we knew exactly what each of us need to bring to bear. This is when things work, and I thought firsthand meant for many years, and I'm really proud to be able to see that. So, it was another leadership lesson for me, which I talk about this because I could see why when something is successful and when something is
[00:36:56] Darren Reinke: not.
[00:36:58] Darren Reinke: And what a great example of you mentioned alignment, but of collaboration, but how did you go about from a practical perspective of gaining that alignment? Because obviously if you've got very strong perspectives, lots of really rich experience that were brought to this situation, but how did you actually go about creating that alignment?
[00:37:14] Jenny Ming: So how you create alignment is you need, first of all, you need to spend time together. Think through what you're all here to do, right? What do we want to accomplish? What does success look like? And I love a brainstorming session. When you have lots of ideas, it should never be a bad idea, but you can't do all of it.
[00:37:32] Jenny Ming: So much of it is for us to work through what, to focus on what to prioritize, how much can we handle that we can really accomplish? Of course, I love to say, oh, here are 20 things I love to do all of them. On the weekend. But I think 1220 important. No. So, I think the first alignment.
[00:37:52] Jenny Ming: It's really about agreeing what you want to accomplish and then how to accomplish that and who does what all of that, the only way is really taking time to work through that process. There's no such thing as, and I love it. Robust conversation or disagreement, but once you walk out of the room, we're aligned.
[00:38:14] Jenny Ming: That means even if I didn't agree with you, I'm going to do it is because we had my, I had a chance to give my point of view. So, I would say that is something that I have seen that works. And you need to take time to make that. Yeah,
[00:38:28] Darren Reinke: it's not just getting aligned, but it's staying aligned, not unwinding that agreement after the conversation happens, that meeting happens.
[00:38:35] Jenny Ming: So we have, is that a staff meeting? I always call it a party's meeting. Cause sometimes you have, especially in retail, you have to refocus reprioritize. So, you want something fast, active updating. It's just telling people, you know what happened, but we call it priorities. Meaning is really be active to do something about it and meeting.
[00:38:56] Jenny Ming: Often to realign or make changes is so important.
[00:39:01] Darren Reinke: I love to go back to something you mentioned early on and talk about a little bit more about the work you're doing to mentor women, especially women of color and leadership.
[00:39:10] Jenny Ming: Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite parts when I was in old Navy, and Charlotte is.
[00:39:16] Jenny Ming: Coaching and mentoring leaders and developing leaders. So, I've always done it more at hock, cause this part of your job. So, I also have always done it. When someone call me and say, Jenny, can you mentor this person? Or can you have a conversation? I always say yes, especially like I say, if it's a woman, especially as a woman of color.
[00:39:36] Jenny Ming: So now I actually worked for a company called ex-co leadership development. So, I'm an executive mentor. Coach. So, I'm actually have clients. And so happened clients I have is from technology, or from food and leadership process, all different boundaries, a good leader is that very similar traits.
[00:39:59] Jenny Ming: It doesn't matter what you feel you're in, so much of it is just really probing thinking, helping them to think through. And strengthen their leadership skills. So, everybody needs different things. But I usually start with, like I said, an assessment of their team because being a leader is really leading a team of people.
[00:40:22] Jenny Ming: So really understand that dynamic helps something think through their leadership lessons. So, that is what I'm working on today, as I would say a side job, but it's, again, this keeps me engaged. It keeps. Interested, what is relevant to today's leader? What are some of the challenges they're going through?
[00:40:41] Jenny Ming: So that's what I'm doing.
[00:40:44] Darren Reinke: That's fantastic. Obviously, one of many side jobs that you have, but what a great way to be giving back now I enjoy it immensely.
[00:40:52] Darren Reinke: So you gave us a little bit of a forward look in terms of what's happening now. What's next. But if you were to go back through your own career, what's the most powerful leadership lesson that you learned in your.
[00:41:02] Jenny Ming: I think probably the most powerful is that it really is about the people because you only could be as good as you are is who you surround yourself with. I know this sounds maybe old, but it's really true. When I think that old Navy was really is because we had incredible people and that people used to ask.
[00:41:24] Jenny Ming: Even as the heart mentioned, say how much time do you spend on people? Especially when we were growing, I would probably say 70, 80% of my time because I have to keep hiring as a leader. I had to stop doing the doing because I need to make sure they, the team, can do the doing right. So, I would say, so the people part really matters and building the best team for you is probably the most important job as a leader.
[00:41:48] Jenny Ming: It starts with people, ends with people. That's what I would say. So, that, and I sought many firsthand. The leader, your leadership matters are because if you are a really good leader, and you're willing to develop and work with your team, people want to work for you, and you get to pick up your best people are because you are a good leader yourself.
[00:42:11] Jenny Ming: So I would say that's one of probably the most powerful lesson is really about people. And I think second is really about taking risks with your career. As I said, when I took on, old Navy people thought I was taking a futuristic, but I never thought so. So, I'm one of those people, like I would regret not doing something versus regret.
[00:42:32] Jenny Ming: If something fail, I ran a fail and have done it, then not have even done opportunity to do something. So, I'm a pretty big risk-taker when it comes to my own career. And I always encourage people to do that too. I'm as you can see, I'm not very complacent. I don't sit still, even where I am at my career, most people wouldn't say, oh, requires it nicely.
[00:42:54] Jenny Ming: And, but to me, is there's still so much to up there and to learn and to contribute. So, I that's the reason why I don't consider myself retired. I certainly am not running company today, but I feel as much as fulfilled as I have ever been in my entire career. So to me, it's like making sure that you are, if you want to be a lifelong learner, it doesn't have to be in the business.
[00:43:19] Jenny Ming: It could be, if you want to be a chef, you want to learn how to cook. You want to know how to paint, whatever that your passion is. I think I really am a believer of that. And don't regret not doing
[00:43:31] Darren Reinke: something he's interesting. And people talk about risks in business or a startup or risks in life. And, but I don't think people really think about risks in your career.
[00:43:40] Darren Reinke: What practical advice would you give to people in terms of like, how do they even think about that? How to actually apply that mindset?
[00:43:46] Jenny Ming: I think so many times' people afraid to take lateral moves. They always want to just get promoted. They only need one. It is vertical. I am a huge believer that did not hesitate to take on.
[00:43:58] Jenny Ming: It could be even a lesser title, but if you're learning something new that could help you in the future, I would do it or do a startup, or how do you know, be a functional expert and be a general manager. A lot of people want to know. The functional expert because they feel really good about what they do and what their expertise, what they contribute, which is terrific.
[00:44:19] Jenny Ming: That's great. But if you get an opportunity to be a general manager and morph into multi-functions, I think it's an incredible opportunity. I can't tell you how many people hesitate to do that. I hesitated myself because, I was a merchant for so long and when I was offered the president of our Navy, from Mickey Drexler, actually I turned it down for the first time.
[00:44:42] Jenny Ming: Because I thought, gosh, I had the best job. I love merchandising. I love products. Why would I want to be the president? I think partly I was. Comfortable and so good at what I did. I didn't see that, gosh, this would be an incredible move. I thought about it. And he keeps interviewing president coming in, and I was, of course, in the prep, interview lists.
[00:45:04] Jenny Ming: And I thought, gosh, if someone came in and became precedent, how would I feel? I would probably be bombed because I worked so hard for this and that a year later, in fact, he was giving me my annual review and I said, maybe, you asked me, was I interested in being president? I thought a lot about it.
[00:45:19] Jenny Ming: I am interested. And he stopped laughing. He said, you know what? Jenny told me long enough. I thought you would be in my office much faster, much earlier than this. I tell this story. It's just because I think that how could anybody turn down the president. But I did is because, things would go so well, I didn't want to rock the boat.
[00:45:39] Jenny Ming: I'd love what I did. I thought all the reasons why I shouldn't versus the reasons why I should. And I finally realized I understood why I shit. It was an incredible opportunity. I could really learn so much about being a general manager and all learning, all the other functions and connecting all of that.
[00:46:00] Jenny Ming: So I was the president of old Navy for seven years. I never read it in a day, so not be afraid and to learn something new and take a risk, even if you fail.
[00:46:14] Darren Reinke: Yeah, I think that's interesting. You talk, obviously that's a very unique general manager type of job, a promotion, and being a broadening of your role.
[00:46:20] Darren Reinke: But I think that's really important. As I remember my early in my career, I looked at my friends who were in finance or were in consulting or whatever it was. They were moving up really quickly. And I was building expertise in such a wide array of areas, but eventually, they became enough. Where I could weigh in on so many things.
[00:46:37] Darren Reinke: And it allowed me, at least personally, to bring so much more richness to a conversation. So, it was, I think, extra value, but also just so much more fulfilling for me, at least
[00:46:46] Jenny Ming: it is, that's why I'm not hesitating. I think there are reasons why not think about all the reasons why it's more important.
[00:46:55] Darren Reinke: Definitely. And taking risks.
[00:46:58] Jenny Ming: Because people don't, nobody likes failing. I don't like failing, but you know what, but if somebody that works out. You get so much more from it, but if you don't take the risk, and you bought to fail somewhere along your career, and once you learned that, it's okay, you can pick yourself up, and you got something out of it.
[00:47:17] Jenny Ming: And I think you, you would learn so much more, and you would advance your career so much more. If you are comfortable with.
[00:47:25] Darren Reinke: It gets back to something you mentioned earlier is as being in a state of discomfort is where growth happens. And obviously, you have to acknowledge at some level that failure is possible.
[00:47:33] Darren Reinke: If you're uncomfortable, if you're uncomfortable, this there's something, there's a reason why.
[00:47:37] Jenny Ming: Exactly. It's so true. Isn't it?
[00:47:39] Darren Reinke: Jenny, I really appreciate your time. So much wisdom on so many different topics, but thanks so much for coming on today.
[00:47:45] Jenny Ming: No, my pleasure. I hope you got, and you listened to what gets something out of it.
[00:47:49] Darren Reinke: Absolutely. Thanks, Jenny.
[00:48:00] Darren Reinke: Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Savage leader podcast. My hope is: You're walking away with tactics that you can apply to become a better leader in your life and in your career. If you're looking for additional insight into. Be sure to check out my book titled, The Savage Leader, 13 Principles to Become a Better Leader From The Inside Out. Also be sure to subscribe to the podcast and I would truly appreciate it. If you left a review and also rate the podcast. Thanks and see you all on the next episode.