Ep. 5: Oceanhouse Media CEO on Finding Dr. Seuss and Overcoming Self-Limiting Beliefs
In this episode, Darren Reinke chats with Michel Kripalani, the CEO of Oceanhouse Media and Extality. Michel talks about his experience starting 4 different companies, tackling self-limiting beliefs, what he learned from his 2020 RV trip, how to learn and stay sharp as an entrepreneur, the importance of asking “How might that work?” in place of “Will that work?”, and dreaming big to live big lives.
Oceanhouse Media designs and develops mobile apps including hits based on the Dr. Seuss series of books. Extality designs and develops applications for augmented reality and virtual reality.
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SHOW NOTES
Getting Started in Entrepreneurship [1:13]
Starting a Company 8 Days Out of College [2:00]
How to Learn Leadership Mindsets [3:00]
The Importance of Asking “How That Might Work” [4:15]
Overcoming Leadership Challenges [5:50]
How to Build the Best Teams [7:10]
How Do You Grow and Learn as an Entrepreneur [10:50]
How to Show Strength in Authenticity [15:24]
The Source of Self-Limiting Beliefs and How to Tackle Them [16:45]
How You Spend Your Time Determines the Life You Lead Success [22:50]
The COVID RV Trip [25:04]
Lessons Learned from 2020 and the RV Trip [27:18]
SHOW LINKS
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For additional leadership tips, be sure to check out Darren's book - The Savage Leader: 13 Principles to Become a Better Leader from the Inside Out.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Darren: Welcome to the Savage Leader podcast. Today's guest is serial entrepreneur, Michel Kripalani. Michel has founded four companies. He's currently the founder and CEO of two companies based in beautiful San Diego. Ocean house media is a San Diego based company that creates apps for mobile devices. Some of their big hits include a series of apps and books based on the Dr. Seuss book series. He's also the CEO of externality, a company that designs and develops applications for augmented reality and virtual reality. Michel welcome to the show and thanks for coming on.
Michel Kripalani: Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be on the podcast.
Darren: So, Michel, I know it's been awhile since you started your first company, but what inspired you to get started as an entrepreneur?
Michel Kripalani: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I'm dating myself. It was pretty far back in 1989. I had an internship and it was at a small company that I thought I'd be working with. It was a doing early interactive multimedia design and the employment did not work out. But what did work out is that someone from that firm reached out to me and said what, if you're not going to be starting to work here, one of the two of us go start a business. And it just seemed like an interesting idea. We sat down; we had a beer literally over the span of one night and we just said, all right, let's go for it. So eight days out of university from graduating from UC San Diego, we decided to start an early interactive design firm trying to sell multimedia long before people even knew what the word was.
Darren: What was that ride like in terms of starting your first company, eight days out of university? I mean that's incredible, especially if you didn't have that inkling before during college.
Michel Kripalani: Yeah, it was really pretty crazy. I was learning a lot from my partner at the time who I was thinking is this senior guy who knew so much more than I did now with the benefit of hindsight, I look back. He was only like four years older than me, but somehow working with a partner gave me a lot of confidence to just say, yeah, we can do it. We started lining up some clients. We really got ourselves out there and actually some really cool work came out of it. I ended up programming the world's first interactive multimedia magazine during those years. And we did some pretty groundbreaking projects. It wasn't a super financially successful company, but for two years I was able to pay myself and made a name for myself and started to understand what running a business all was about.
Darren: What was it like in terms of some of those leadership, mindsets and skills? And a lot of the focus on this podcast is of course, about leadership and what were some of those things you had to learn along the way?
Michel Kripalani: I think one of the biggest things was just learning that to tackle everything with a can-do attitude, almost like rather than looking at a problem and sort of saying we don't know how to get over this wall. The question is a little bit more like, how can we get over this wall or how can we get around it or how can we break through it? There's just so much of that in entrepreneurship. I find that creative problem solving is one of the most important skills of all entrepreneurs and creative problem solving starts with the assumption of, yup, we're going to be able to solve this now, how are we actually going to do it? Many years later, I can remember signing contracts with, I signed a contract with Microsoft. It was a multi-million dollar deal and I turned to my CTO and I said, we're going to be able to do this, right. And he said, I have no idea how we're going to do it. And I signed the paperwork anyhow, and we just said, well, we're going to figure it out along the way. So there's an attitude of just a knowingness of putting yourself out on a limb and saying, yep, we're going to figure it out.
Darren: Yeah instead of saying why this won't work, it's just, how can this work? How can we make this work?
Michel Kripalani: Exactly, because you know boy, I tell yaw, every business I've started, I could find if I talked to 10 people, nine people would say, that's the stupidest idea ever. You're never going to make any money. Don't even try to do it. So if you listen to too many people, it's, I know. You just kind of have to say yes, we're going to be able to figure it out. We're going to be willing to put ourselves in a position of pain. We know that we have to solve it and you put a bunch of smart people together and you just do what you need to do.
Darren: Yeah, people always talk about the restaurant business as being notoriously challenging and what percent fail, I think nine out of 10, but I always think about as an entrepreneur. Well tell me an easy business to start and I'll go do that.
Michel Kripalani: It's just, yeah. I don't know that there is such a thing as an easy business, I'm heavily involved with this group called entrepreneurs organization. It's 14,000 people around the world that have all started businesses that have achieved a certain level of success. There are about 200 members in San Diego and I just look around and I'm like, every person feels like they must be working. One of the hardest businesses they've ever worked in solving challenges that no one's ever solved. I think it just comes with the territory.
Darren: Absolutely! The entrepreneurship journey is definitely not always easy one.
Michel Kripalani: Nope, but it can be very rewarding both and not only just financially, but just mentally and everything else. I just get so much joy from it when things go, well; it's just so much fun.
Darren: In terms of reflecting back on your first company, but really any of the four that you started, what are some of the challenges you've encountered specifically from a leadership perspective, any new mindsets you had to develop, anything that you had to break through to be successful?
Michel Kripalani: Yeah, I mean the most successful companies, when I look back on them and I ask why were those particular companies or those years of those companies successful, it always comes down to the team that we were able to build and the motivation that we were able to infuse in those people. When you have a multi-disciplinary team that is just motivated to crush it nothing can stop you and the tricky thing is it's hard to do. It's hard to find the right people. It's hard to find a way to motivate them and when you get it all lined up, it's just like magic because then you just step back and watch. And the team's amazing teams do incredible things.
Darren: Yeah, absolutely. It really does come down to the team and starts with getting the right people on board. I've always thought about in terms of how you motivate people in terms of being more nuanced in terms of approaching people with different styles, different motives, and different personalities in different ways to be most successful. But what do you do in terms of building the best teams within your companies?
Michel Kripalani: Let me see the best way to build the best teams at the core. I'm always looking for people that are willing to learn and willing to grow. I will take someone with less experience that has the right attitude compared to someone that has an incredible skillset, but a really shitty attitude. So it's all about having the team dynamic and folks that are really, really motivated and driven. And as a leader, we have to understand what drives people in a lot of cases, it's not financial. Financial is a component, but most often people are driven by things that have nothing to do with money. They want to have a sense of purpose. They want to have a sense of doing something that's important. They want to do something of scale and when the leader can paint that and say, Hey when you are a member of this team, we together will achieve XYZ. That's when you can really get people to give you their all, and that's what you need, especially in a startup and in a true entrepreneurial setting, you need people to give you their all, if you really want to succeed.
Darren: Definitely it's funny. It's actually a lot of times people lead with money as being the number one driver, if they're trying to land a new job or a new career, but when you tease it apart, it's always something more important, a sense of purpose, a sense of accomplishment, or as you mentioned as being part of a fantastic
Michel Kripalani: Yep I found that being part of a fantastic team alone gets the right people to be on board. I think back to some of the teams that I had, for example, at Presto studios, my second company, when we were doing independent video game design and some of the work that we were doing when we were doing mist three and some of these incredible projects. Those teams were just insane and to see where those folks have gone now is pretty incredible.
Darren: He has got to be a huge sense of accomplishment to develop people and to see them go on and be wildly successful in their future career in life.
Michel Kripalani: One of my dearest friends started as an intern with us at Presto. And I remember distinctly the phone call that he called me about two years ago. And he said, you are the first person I'm telling other than my wife, but I am about to accept a job as a vice president of Disney. And I'm going to have a team of a thousand technicians underneath me. And I was just like, dude that is crazy. I remember when we were sitting; playing video games together and you were in junior high school it's amazing. And it's an incredible feeling when you can help people and help just contribute even a small piece to building up their career.
Darren: Absolutely! What a fantastic sense of accomplishment. I know personally for me, people I've mentored, but also those who have mentored me, I always love to share those successes of, hey look what I did or look what I accomplished. It's just such a great thing that people really appreciate.
Michel Kripalani: Yeah and I think the best managers sort of get themselves out of the way when you can help people to be the best that they can be. Instead of focusing on yourself so much that's really where a lot of that that special fairy dust resides people that really want to get better, the manager finds a way to open those doors, help them out, help them to learn and grow. And then that's what starts that flywheel cycle of the company is getting what they need and the individual getting what they need as well.
Darren: Something that struck me was you've been in the game for design and development for a long time, since the early days of your career. And something I think is a struggle sometimes as an entrepreneur is how do you continue to stay sharp? How do you learn, how do you get, and from your career, I know you had a stint at Autodesk where you're a part of more of a corporate entity with a, I imagine a strong learning and development arm, but how have you grown? How have you learned? I know right now you've entered into, to AR and VR applications and what have you done to stay sharp and to learn new skills?
Michel Kripalani: Yeah, that's a pretty deep question. I try to, my target every year is to read about 50 books. I consume a lot of tech information online as well, and I really try to make sure that I'm sharp and I understand what's going on with the trends. I'm a big fan of the work of Peter Diamandis and his books abundance and bold, and the future is faster than you think and a lot of the folks coming out of singularity, so I'm very much in the tech side. So those are things that are of interest to me. On the business side, that's one of the reasons I mentioned it earlier with entrepreneurs organization surrounding myself with other entrepreneurs that are all pushing and striving. I learn a ton from the people around me and then I learned a lot from the world-class leaders that we, we bring in as speakers. So just I guess a quick short plug on that for anyone on this podcast that is an entrepreneur or thinking about one look into entrepreneurs, organization, because they have an accelerator program that helps people once they get their businesses started, they really help them to grow up.
Darren: Yeah, you make a great point that that peer to peer development is so important. And I often work with people that in terms of looking for mentors encourage them to look externally as well. Of course, your boss, your supervisor, your co-founders, your leadership team members. But working with people who sit in similar chairs, they feel that hot flame from the marketplace pressures is really a beautiful way to connect with people and to learn and to grow and, and to push each other, but also to hold one another accountable.
Michel Kripalani: Yeah and you a hundred percent on target and the times that I have been the most successful in business is speaking, coming back to that team when I can sit down with a team and I look around the room and I say, I am definitely not the most knowledgeable person here. I am not the most skilled person here. And actually I'm lucky to be sitting at this table. And I think the real danger is oftentimes managers and leaders reach a point where everyone in the room is looking to them for answers and solutions. And I've learned from firsthand experience that when it reaches that point the business is really at a precipice and in a bad place because you do not want to be the most knowledgeable person at the table or else it's going to stunt the growth of the business.
Darren: That's a great point is you're comfortable with not knowing the answers to every situation. A lot of times people feel like the most senior person has to have all the answers, but really it's a facilitator. It's about bringing on the best people that have subject matter expertise and really that complement the skills that you do have.
Michel Kripalani: I think that's exactly it. The best managers are really coaches; they're coaches of their people. They don't have to be knowledgeable in the industry. The best example of that is a friend of mine. He's become a friend of mine. Alan Malali, who is the CEO, he was at Boeing, he was the CEO that turned around Ford and has had a very, very successful career in managing. And it's interesting because when he went into Ford, people looked at him and said what do you know about building automobiles? And he said I don't, but I, but I know how to run teams.
And by the way, we used to build airplanes. And if you have a mistake in an airplane, it falls out of the sky. I think I can figure out automobiles, but the earliest manager meetings that he had when people came to him and said, we have a problem, he would say, I don't know what to do, but let's go find someone who can help. And usually in most cases within a day or two days, they would find someone within the Ford organization that had the knowledge that they needed to solve their problem. So I think when managers look for the answers inside themselves, oftentimes they're limiting the possibility of what could be instead of really reaching out to folks that are true industry experts.
Darren: But of course, that, that requires some level of vulnerability and transparency. And a lot of people I found earlier in their career are not comfortable. They're afraid to admit they don't know the answer to something, to be a light shine on them. Anything, any advice you'd give to people in terms of how they can have that right mindset to know they don't have to have all the answers.
Michel Kripalani: I believe that leaders show strength through their authenticity when they are able to say I acknowledge the groups. If the group has said something, I acknowledge that the group has said this, there is a problem. And there's very, very, there's a tremendous amount of strength in the words saying, I don't know. I don't know, like we, the reality is we don't all know. I mean, I'm not an expert in interactive design and microchip this and battery that and whatever, and marketing and all the things and whatever else I might have to touch, but I know how to find people that can answer those questions for me. And I think the best leaders are the ones that are assembling the teams and just pulling the information in from the outside. Yeah it's an easy trap to fall into to think that, because I've been put on this pedestal or because I'm in charge, I need to have all the answers. And I think it's a real problem.
Darren: It has it definitely a perception around that. So it's important for people to realize that it's okay to not have the answers. And that actually is a trait of a fantastic leader.
Michel Kripalani: Yeah I agree. I mean, that's certainly my emo, that's how I lead.
Darren: I'd like to, just to refer back when I interviewed you for the Savage leader book; one of the topics that we discussed in depth was around self-limiting beliefs. And that's something that I work a lot with clients, but also on myself in terms of what are those beliefs, where do they come from? And most importantly, how do you tackle those things? Can you give me your perspective in terms of sharing that some of the self-learning beliefs you had? I know you talked about it as it pertained to the launch of ocean house media, but just what is the source of those? What were some of those things that were getting in your way?
Michel Kripalani: Well, the thing is, it's so easy to play small in life and I don't know about you, but I look up to a lot of leaders out there that have been successful. I know some of these folks have character flaws, whether it's Steve jobs or Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or whatever. I mean, they're strong leaders, they have issues. Let's not get into the details of it. But one thing that's common for all of them is they were willing and able to dream big and put out some big visions. And one of the things that I have had to work on for myself is dreaming bigger and tackling things that are bigger. It's easy to sit sort of, and not strive too hard. What if I fail mentality, I'm not going to put myself out there. And now that I've done this long enough now I'm in my fifties. I have learned that all of my most successful proud moments have come when I have literally put myself out on a limb and done something beyond my current skill-set or my capabilities at the time when I said yes.
And that is everything from personal life to business choices, to even the woman that I married. I true story. The very Karen and I met online the very first time I saw her, I was completely stunned. And I literally went into self-talk of, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. So like no joke on all levels. I've had self-limiting beliefs. And in the case of ocean house media, it was actually Karen that said why don't we try to go after the rights for Dr. Seuss? And I was like we're just; it's just the two of us. And we're running this business out of our house and we're just small. And we haven't gotten to the scale yet. We haven't achieved what we need to do yet to be able to pitch it.
And it took me a while to get there with her encouragement to really think like, okay, wait, how could I do this? If we were to do this, and it didn't take more than 10 minutes of thought before I had a possible path forward that we were able to execute on and it wasn't more than two weeks or a month, perhaps tops before we had a verbal agreement on a deal with Dr. Seuss enterprises. So we have to be willing to dream big if we want to have big lives. And I don't know about all the listeners on the podcast, but personally I'm interested in having a big, extraordinary life. And I realized that in order to do that, I have to not only dream big, but I have to be willing jump off the cliff and build the wings on the way down.
Darren: Yeah, that putting you in a point and place of discomfort is really important, not just to grow, but to really tackle those self-limiting beliefs. So for me, I always had a self-limiting belief about English capability because I didn't get into AP English in high school and struggled to analyze literature in college. But what I realized is that it wasn't saying, Hey, you're not a great writer or even an okay writer. It was, you're struggling with some analyzing some literature. And so for me, part of the impetus for writing the book was really around challenging myself to do something I didn't think I could do or never thought I could do never associated myself as an author. I still don't, but it just be a fun challenge to sign myself up for.
Michel Kripalani: I think that's it. I think that if there's an inkling of interest to do something, and even if the skill-set is all the way at rock bottom, and I'm not saying that you’re English skill-set was rock bottom, but even if it is hard work and a desire to learn, it can actually pay off. I tend to do a lot of public speaking. I have learned that my public speaking goes better when I interject humor. And there's a little bit of a natural wit that I enjoy, that I have sometimes when I'm on stage. And I realized that that doesn't just come magically, it comes with practice. And I actually took some standup comedy lessons at the encouragement of Karen to say like, this is important. This is going to help you talk about being out of your comfort zone and trying to do standup comedy.
And yet now I've learned the basics of how to do joke writing and how to do this and how to do delivery. All of these things help and I want to touch on one thing that you mentioned. I think that we get caught up on what did we do when we were in school? Where were we in a formal environment and how were we relative to our peers? And I realized that, I mean, it doesn't matter what class I was taking in high school or college in about one to three months of dedicated study. Now at my age, I could, I could learn anything I needed to learn at whatever level I needed to learn it at a college level of whatever. I mean, all these universities have all these courses that are all available. There's nothing stopping us from learning anything in the world that we want to learn. It's really just time and desire.
Darren: Yeah, there are so many resources out there from digital tools to books, to people, to speakers and so forth, but another great way to overcome cell phone and beliefs is get to the underlying data. What is it, where's the gap? Is it knowledge? Okay, go acquire that knowledge. Is it a skill? Okay, let's go learn a skill. Is it a new mindset? Okay. Figure out how you can switch your mind around. So you can have that different mindset to be successful
Michel Kripalani: A hundred percent, a hundred percent and mindset and attitude is critical. It's the foundation of all of it.
Darren: Yeah I mean true. I think most people what's between their ears truly is the only thing that gets between them and success. Obviously with some limitations on that, of course
Michel Kripalani: But you're exactly on that and I think that I catch myself. I have in the past caught myself many times when I think about a dream that I have. And then I think about how I'm spending my most precious commodity, which is my time and whether or not I am actually going after that dream. And there's been a number of times where I've looked at how I choose to spend my time and I've realized that it's just not serving me. Many years ago I gave up TV recently. I gave up even more specific things like NFL and even paying attention. And I just realized that these little time socks are stopping me from having the life that I want to have in the timeframe that I want to have it. So I've chosen to invest my time in areas that are going to get me to my goal faster and trying not to rest and relax quite as much along the way knowing that the fruits will come at the tail end.
Darren: Yeah I can imagine if you actually quantify that time in terms of time spent on social media time spent binge watching Netflix, what you could do more productive way, not just to learn, but also just to be more engaged with your family and your community.
Michel Kripalani: Well, that's it exactly, isn't it? I mean this idea of binge watching on Netflix, I just, it just doesn't grow with me and I'm glad that I sort of gave up TV before that because I just, we just don't turn it on. I would much rather, I mean, I've got stacks of business books sitting right next to me. I've got a list of at least 20 or 30 books that I want to get through on my short list. And I would much rather get a third of a way through a book rather than some movie that I can't even remember a couple years from now.
Darren: Yeah of course balancing it with some time to some R & R, to, to recharge and to unplug a little bit too
Michel Kripalani: Well, a hundred percent I'm on board with that. I mean, COVID hit, we bought an RV, we hit the road. So I totally get it on the RNR side and needing to shut off. I'm definitely in a shutoff time in my career right now.
Darren: Yeah let's actually switch gears a little bit at the interesting story. I'd love to hear more about that. So tell me about the RV trip that you guys are on.
Michel Kripalani: Well, we saw a couple things when COVID hit. One was the office which was running ocean house media and externality in San Diego. We didn't really miss a beat when everyone had to work from home. So we did a simple financial analysis on it, literally five minutes on a napkin. It took absolutely nothing for us to realize that we no longer really needed an office and that we could be effective with everyone working from home forever. So we did an early termination on the lease and that gave me a ton of freedom, right? Isn't that what entrepreneurs are looking for? It's like, why don't you start a business? I'm looking for freedom, and now you have a business. What do you have? I'm not free. I'm tied down to this. I'm tied down to that. It's ridiculous so we cut that chain.
Once we cut that chain we realized that I could run the businesses that I'm running from anywhere in the world. And we put it to a test. We bought an RV, we piled the family in it, and we drove from San Diego all the way to the tip of Maine. Zigzagging we spent seven and a half weeks. We came through 25 States, did 8,000 miles and decided to invest in really, really quality family time. I'd still take my calls with my teams. I was still doing my best to maintain all of my business responsibilities, but we wanted to basically test it out and see what would happen. So, as I'm talking to you now, I'm still in Connecticut. We're about to do our drive back. We're going to be leaving shortly. But this time has changed the makeup of my family. And I believe that in order to have a successful business, things need to be right at the home. If they're not right at the home, it's really easy to not have your head in the right place. And so I want to do what I can do to invest in the family and then have that as the foundation for everything else that I want to build on top of it.
Darren: What a fantastic journey and one of the silver linings of code has been time at home. And the four of us at home, we spent so much time in the pool and playing in the yard. And just especially the first couple of months when we weren't doing anything, literally outside of getting groceries and getting things delivered and just been a remarkable time to bond. What have you learned about yourself specifically from a leadership perspective during this time during your RV trip?
Michel Kripalani: So I've had a lot of introspective time thinking about who I am, where I am, what I want to do and how I want to spend my time. And just the way that I was talking about how I had found that I was wasting time on TV and even things like following football. I realized that I've been wasting too much time in the minutia of my businesses. My goal my genuine desire is to be the owner of multiple businesses and the operator of none. And so I've been using this time to try to figure out how I can have these investments growing, doing what they need to do with the right teams, but without my day to day sort of care-taking of them. And I realized that I've got a long way to go to get there, but now I have a new vision of the life that I want to have.
So my intention is clear. It's bold. It scares the crap out of me. There have been many times where I've left my business for two months and come back to just an absolute train wreck. I mean, that happened once where we had a bunch of contracts, I was down in Australia, we had the video game company came back, contracts had been canceled, no one was able to reach me. It was just a disaster. So there's been this fear of like, I've got to be there. I've got to be there. I've got to be there. And so personally, one of my challenges is to overcome this belief of like, it's not about me. I don't have to be, I need to have the right team. The team will do the right things. I just need to check in on them stay in your lane, focus on what you're good at and let the company with the team build itself.
Darren: So how does this hold for the future? Is this going to be a regular cripple on each trip on the RV across the country?
Michel Kripalani: We actually have a vision of living around the world taking the girls out of traditional school, putting them in virtual school. So I think there's a very high likelihood that we will become a mobile virtual family for a couple of years. Yeah, just to me, that sounds like a ton of fun, right? Like who wouldn't want to do that? Or, I mean, I guess there are people that wouldn't, but for, in my family, we all want to do that. And if we all want to does that, then we want to find a way to make it happen.
Darren: Yeah that's a dream of ours as well, my add the luxury because it was a tough experience, but my parents pulled the plug on our Northern California life when I was nine. So my sister and I, and my parents moved to Switzerland, went into the Swiss public school, whole other story, incredible life experience, and would love to do that with our kids, whether it's domestically here in the U S or ideally somewhere in Europe or Latin America.
Michel Kripalani: That's it right, and that imprinted on you, and you just said it, you want to do that with your kids is similar thing happened with me. I got, I got lifted up grade seven and eight. I was in South Korea, grade nine. I was in Australia. And the life experience that came from it was just out of this world. And I want something similar for my daughters and trying to figure out the best way to make that happen is one of the, one of the things that I'm actively working on. We've been talking about it a lot in the RV. You drive that far, you have a lot of time to talk with your wife and figure out where you want to go.
Darren: We do our annual trip to Lake Tahoe. We load up the car with dogs, cats, and even one trip goldfish, which my parents thought were hilarious. And so that's what our annual trip to get away and just to break away from the grind and really open our minds and, and most importantly to have some great family,
Michel Kripalani: That's it. That's it!
Darren: Great, well, thank you so much, Michel for coming on. Where can people find more about you and your businesses?
Michel Kripalani: I'd say that if people want to find out more about me just to go straight to my personal website, which is just MichelKripalani.com. And if you want to know the spelling of that, you can get it from the podcast notes or from the name on there. I do some coaching, I do some speaking and I just love entrepreneurship. I love working with folks that want to build businesses, want to build better lives for themselves, their families, and for their teams. And then for the companies themselves it's externality.com or ocean house media.com, or if you want to find our apps just type Dr. Seuss on your iPhone, they'll pop up.
Darren: Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights, Michel.
Michel Kripalani: Well, thank you. It's been a real pleasure.